How did your DCF shelter age (and expire)?

[Jon Solomon]

I’m willing to wager that a low symmetrical octagon in 0.8 DCF or 30D silpoly with proper full perimeter stakes and guyouts (and possibly an A frame pole setup and additional apex guys) would be able to withstand winds up in that range at a much lower weight though still twice as heavy as some of the UL options being discussed here. I had such a shelter made in DCF (410 grams) in winds that were easily 50 kph without any additional guylines and the thing was rock steady. I bet that one made in the new 30D silpoly from ET will be even better (though at a cost of an additional 200-300 grams). The octagonal shape is awesome for shedding wind.

[Stumphges]

Yeah, I think the regular octagon is superb against wind. Not the best space/weight ratio, nor footprint/usable space, but in wind-shedding/weight I think it probably can’t be beat in the 1p and 2p realm.

[Murali C]

Zpacks claims their tents can handle 60mph winds (100 kmh).

Typically at least in the Sierras/Colorado etc, the wind dies once the sun sets. Unless there is some freak thunderstorm in the night. And those typically last an hour or two.

[Arthur]

My Zpacks tent could not handle a few years of 6 mph winds.

[Murali C]

ha ha:-)

[Stumphges]

Murali, I know Zpacks claim that. I can only scratch my head. 60 mph is 96 kph.

[obx hiker]

Happy New Year all! Hey reading this over again this morning; this statement caught my eye.

“We’ve been told for a long time that markets promote innovation.
Obviously that’s just not true — at least the way today’s markets are organized.”

Un-regulated markets, combined with patents, are a mechanism for creating monopolies. This is almost a case study. OTOH one could argue that DSM would not have invested the time/effort etc. to develop production methods absent the protection afforded by some sort of patent.

And OTOH (running out of hands, or as my friend from Wanchese puts it; on the third hand) if the process weren’t protected by some sort of patent others might very well be producing HDDCF or whatever it’s called and imagine the progress of  humanity WRT stronger lighter shelters and who knows what else.

[obx hiker]

A slight complimentary sidetrack to Jon Solomon’s observations at the top of the page: Twin Buttes Women’s Tipi Raising Contest

Less than 5:30. You will maybe note that (as always) there’s some guy on the sideline shouting out instructions though to be fair along with encouragement. Looks to me like they have it wired.

Build something like that with HB DCF and maybe @ 3 carbon poles?

[Murali C]

Patents are a double edged sword. Competitors figure out how to work around the parents – sometimes for the better.

The Wright brothers spent a lot of time suing people (rather than innovating) to prevent stealing their “wing warping”. I think the “ailerons” was invented to work around the wing warping patent and I believe is what is used nowadays.

So usually someone will figure out a way to come with a rival product…though DCF has been around too long without a competing product for tents.

Love the Penicillin guy who decided to not patent and instead gave it away…

[Roger Caffin]

A somewhat biased opinion, fwiiw:
DCF does not have any competition: is that because the market has been judged not worth the effort?
Sometimes you have to stand back and look at the whole scene.

Cheers

[obx hiker]

^^ If the patent is indeed expiring as I think was said somewhere upthread then I’d imagine we’ll find out won’t we.

Maybe one of these days when you young guys are longer in the tooth you’ll be sitting around the fire in your sorta holographic projected critter-proof insulated dome shelter and someone will say something like ” Remember back in the day when we all thought that stuff called DCF was the absolute schizz and then all of a sudden you couldn’t get it anymore and it seemed like the end of the world?”

[Chris K]

Do catenary cuts help maintain the shape of a DCF shelter panel over time?

[Jon Solomon]

Dan Durston made a very informative post about cat cuts on this thread that he erased shortly after posting. Maybe he’ll chime in. Cat cuts help increase tension along the line (hem or ridgeline) but DCF doesn’t play well with being tensioned too much and the cat cut would have to incorporated in a way to distribute tension evenly across the panel. Other fabrics might benefit from them more…depending on the design and the qualities of the fabric.

[Sam Farrington]

There has been some progress here with paraglider fabric, weighing around 27 grams (<1 oz) per yd2.  After very light PU coatings with Gear Aid Tent Sure, the weight was just under .99 oz/yd2, and water could not be forced through it (poor man’s HH test yielding no numbers for Roger).  It is spec’d at 20D by Extrem Textil, using 6.6 nylon with a double ripstop grid.  True, it feels flimsy due to how thin it is.  But unlike DCF, it is a woven fabric, will take sewn seams with a light but strong thread, and has some bias stretch. Best of all, it does not expand when moist any more than membrane silpoly of similar weight from RBTR.  And folds up to almost nothing.  Will need to do repeat tests in different humidities before making a final decision.

One problem is getting this stuff from German companies.  They use DSL to deliver to the US, and while it was super in the past. not so much now.  Probably an effect of the pandemic.

About the water retention from rainfall: this is one area where spray-on DWR shines, beading up and shedding from canopies (and rain gear).  But it is full of PFA’S, so now use a gas mask that is air tight, unlike different face masks in common use.  Note that it only protects the wearer, not others.  And will wait for a sunny day and temps above freezing before applying.

Murali, I appreciate your sense of humor.  However this did not keep me from being suitably chastised by my dearest companion for the snarky post.  But do think that if the next tent were to be DCF, it would be a TarpTent.   Wonder where all those companies who make DCF shelters are going to get the material.

About Roger and Lord Kelvin. Bet I’m having a lot more fun than Lord Kelvin ever did.  Apparently “shuddering” and its effect on comfort is quite subjective, and probably very difficult to quantify.

[Roger Caffin]

About the water retention from rainfall: this is one area where spray-on DWR shines, beading up and shedding from canopies (and rain gear). But it is full of PFA’S,
Yes, conventional DWR is now very suspect. I don’t carry it or use it any more.
But silicone spray with a compressed gas propellant is fine, and I respray my silnylon tents every few years (or maybe a bit more). The water beads off just fine.

YMMV

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Thanks, Roger. Assume that includes Atsko Silicone Water-Guard.

But am working with paraglider fabric that has a very light PU coating on at least one side, which might bolix up the adhesion of the silicone.  Not sure, but simple tests will resolve it.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

Yes, I have used Atsko Si WG. I forget what the propellant is. It was fine.
I am currently using a locally-available Helmar Silicone Spray.

Cheers

[jscott]

“young guys…absolute schizz…”

the guys who say this are no longer young, already. And you and I are that much older. But it’s cool, it’s groovy, aging is copacetic, man!

(no one’s come up with a better hip adjective than ‘copacetic’.)

[Dave @ Oware]

“So yes a larger reinforcement will help for these reasons (and a few others like spreading the strain of stitching) but because the tension that caused the failure is mostly along a straight path (between the corner and pole tip) it may just move the failure point outwards. “

That is an instance where the reinforcement material needs to be less stretchy than the main fabric. Then the material to each side of the force line (such as a Ridgeline between two points) shares more of the stress. Having equally stretchy fabric for reinforcements is not always the best. Looking at sails again, they use a multi layer, less stretchy reinforcement nearest the hem/corner/attachment point and gradually use lighter material and fewer layers farther away from that point.

Kinda like triple butted bike frames.

The stitch pattern is also used to distribute the forces. A semi circle reinforcement loads more evenly when pulls are from different directions. The distance from the attachment point and the stitches remains the same as the pull is rotated.

A triangle reinforcement has stitches that are closer to the attachment point on either side of the force vector, if the vector remains the same (say a ridgeline). This  increases the load sharing on the fabric to the sides of the main force vector. On a ridgeline, this spreads the load to the sides.

It takes little extra expense to overbuild by just increasing the size of a reinforcement.

 

[YoPrawn]

Sorry for tossing this onto an already long thread, but I find when it comes to my Zpacks tent and tarp (both Altaplex models) it takes a bit of extra care to guy it out so that there isn’t a diagonal being pulled along the bias of the DCF. I find it is way too easy to feel like the shelter is taught, but in reality it isn’t. I think it is way too easy to get a bad pitch on these tents if the guy lines are not the right length or angle to the corners. It also helps to put a much longer guy line up front that goes over the vestibule, as the OEM ones are too short on uneven terrain sometimes. Pitching a shelter like this with too-short guy lines can make it difficult to get a solid pitch.

The foot and head end panel guy out points are also to blame here, as when they are pulled too tight, they create the diagonal pull across the bias. People might be putting too much tension on those panels, when in reality, they don’t need to be guyed out at all even in a slight breeze as long as the shelter is properly pitched to begin with.

Also had an Aeon Li for a short period, and I noticed when it was pitched once on very uneven ground, it was near impossible to avoid diagonal pulls going into the bias of the front two corners, mostly due to limitation imposed by the pitchlock strut corners in the rear.

A BIT OT HERE:

I might be the only person in the world who LOVES how DCF is very transparent compared to other materials. This is 90% of why I like DCF. I hate being in my shelter and not being able to see what’s going on outside, especially when I have to deal with some giant quadruped stomping around camp. Nice to know the species before jumping out of bed to chase it away. LOL

I’m not a thru-hiker, and hell, I don’t think I’ve multi-day backpacked even 1,000 miles in my whole life due to handicaps. I don’t care how long these shelters will last. 40 nights? Don’t care. I will fix it or buy another when the time comes.

[Sam Farrington]

Issues with Zpacks are the fiddle factor (loose and wrinkly pitch) and the guyline anchors scabbed onto the walls of the canopy, which create the issues described by Johan.   IMO, not suitable for camping in exposed, open terrain, where a stable structure is essential.

[M B]

I have a hexamid with about 150 nights on it with no issue….. Well other than some holes that tree branch made that were repaired with Cuben tape.

 

I usually use my .74 deschutes.  No issues with it either.

Given the fixed width that Cuben comes in… And the expense… It’s not really odd that manufacturers might attempt to minimize waste and not use the best orientation of fibers.

 

But like I tell people….. Gear is disposable.  U L gear more so than heavier gear.  I know people don’t like to hear that when they pay $600 for a shelter, but it’s the truth.  You got to pay to play.

 

 

[talagnu]

perhaps it would be better to strive for ul gear that’s less disposable

[YoPrawn]

Issues with Zpacks are the fiddle factor (loose and wrinkly pitch) and the guyline anchors scabbed onto the walls of the canopy, which create the issues described by Johan. IMO, not suitable for camping in exposed, open terrain, where a stable structure is essential.

With Zpacks tents and tarps, I think the mid-panel anchors should have just the tiniest amount of pre-load put onto them, if any at all. Those lines should act more as helping reduce panel flapping a lot more than add to the main structural stability. The main anchor points should have the proper gear holding the lines down for the wind conditions and not rely on the mid-panels to help them out with half the load.

Since tarps and tarp-tents have become mainstream in the last few years, many people are using them without realizing there is a lot of thought and practice needed to have a sense of the engineering mechanics needed to make them work as designed. It doesn’t help that people carry all the same stakes and that Zpacks puts the same guy line on all anchor points, making it look logical to crank down the mid-panels as hard as the corners. With using all the same stakes, one has to do this to keep the tent holding down in high winds. I carry varying styles/sizes of stakes for all the corners and panels.

I have no idea if proper pitching reduces or eliminates the corner shredding issue, but I have used them enough to know how easy it is to allow the corners to get worked like that.

[Murali C]

I think we have beaten this thread to death……multiple times :-)

Everything in life is a trade off. Only you as a hiker can decide what trade offs you are willing to live with. My trade off’s include a few Zpacks tents:-)

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