Fleece instead of wind shirt?

[chris smead]

Andrew Skurka wrote an article describing how he likes to bring a light fleece instead of a wind shirt.  The benefit being that it adds more insulation in a layering system.

It makes sense…I’m temped to follow suit….but I can’t ignore the fact that I tend to wear my wind shirt ALOT and wonder how much I would miss it…

Any thoughts on this approach?

[Jeff Jeff]

Doesn’t work at all for me if there is wind. I rarely want more insulation. I often want wind resistance if I am above treeline. I can see a fleece being a better item if you are walking through the sheltered woods on a cold day.

[Art …]

I agree with Skurka.

I never bring a wind shirt but always bring a UL rain jacket plus a mid layer.

with a light wind the mid layer does fine.

with a heavy wind the rain jacket does the trick

[todd]

The trip would have to be really cold for me to make that tradeoff.

Too often, I use my windhsirt over a baselayer only.  Fleece would be unbearable under my rain jacket unless temps were c-o-l-d.

[Arne L.]

I like fleece, to be honest. It’s inexpensive, durable and reliable.

It wore it all the time during a trek in the Chartreuse (France), temperatures hovering around the freeze point, and it was a real lifesaver.

But… could a windshirt serve the same purpose? Does it ‘give’ any sort of warmth?

Next year I’m doing a truhike of the Haute Route Pyrenees, and I would like to go as light as possible without sacrificing warmth or comfort. Choices, choices…

[Brad Rogers]

I like a windshirt better in Rockies and Sierras but I did find that in Alaska I brought a 100wt fleece as a midlayer and used it a lot.  I pretty much never bring a midlayer otherwise.

[Ken Thompson]

As always, the gear needs to be matched to conditions.

[Anonymous]

“Too often, I use my windhsirt over a baselayer only.  Fleece would be unbearable under my rain jacket unless temps were c-o-l-d.”

+1

However, i do find my Nikwax Analogy Pump Liner sourced from Cioch to be a bit cooler than even a 100 wt fleece.  It’s not quite as thick as the regular fleece, and with one side smooth definitely feels a bit cooler.

A very thin and breathable baselayer (OR Echo ls or fishnet for example) with the above and a windjacket, i “could” use at around 40 provided i open up the windjacket most of the way, and the 1/4 zip of the N.A.P.L.   Talking no cold rain.   In any case, it’s easy enough to take off a windjacket while still hiking, and for me that makes a big difference even if there is just a slight breeze.

[Dale Wambaugh]

I could see leaving a wind shell behind and using a rain shell to fill that niche (poorly),  but taking a fleece rather than a wind shell makes no sense. Wind shells work in an UL system because they have great performance and versatility for the weight and volume. Using the favorite UL versions, you add only 4 ounces and apple-sized volume.

It may help to think of fleece as a synthetic sweater.  Great for sleep and to take a chill off if there is no wind, but needs that “capping” layer of wind or rain shell when the cold wind comes up. It helps to think of a windshirt as a shirt rather than a jacket too.

A fleece is very porous insulation and needs a shell for best use the the widest range of conditions. A windshirt is just a shell and keeps cold wind off your skin, but provides no real insulation past that.  Having both fleece and a wind shell gives a versatile coordinated system where all components can be worn together or each on its own, just like any 3-in-1 system garment, but very light weight. A typical 100w Aircore or Power Stretch 1/4 top is 10-11 ounces in a large size and the better windshirts are about 4 ounces. More serious fleece options like a Power Dry hoodie or High Loft Grid jacket are creeping into the 13-16 ounce range. None of those fleece options is worth much used alone in cold wind other than a better-than-nothing scenario, which is just bad layer planning.

So a fleece mates well with a wind shell, but can’t replace it:  they serve different functions. You can use windproof fleece, but I think that is a terrible choice for hiking, lacking the vesatility of the fleece/windshirt combo (as well as performance issues). Of course fleece works perfectly with your rain shell too.

[Paul Magnanti]

I never did like windshirts personally for three-season use.  Though, I do love my 100 wt fleece pullover. A generic one and weighs not-quite-9 oz.

if it is that cold and windy, the combo of a thermal top and the fleece does me quite well. (Naturally, if it is cold, windy AND rainy, I’ll throw on rain gear)  Note that I use this same setup in winter. Only in winter, the wind tends to be  colder and more biting. I’ll throw on a simple oversized anorak windbreaker (same as a windshirt..just less expensive and a little heavier since it is not sold in outdoor stores :) )’

I do pump out a lot of heat so YMMV.

 

 

 

[Paul S.]

They are generally apples and oranges in comparison. But can a light fleece add enough insulation in windy conditions that it is as effective as a wind shirt?  If yes, then it could be better than a wind shirt  since it also provides additional insulation to your system.  However if you don’t need the extra insulation then a wind shirt is lighter, smaller, and possibly more comfortable to move in.

 

[Anton Solovyev]

Fleece, of course, not windshirt. A 100-weight fleece pullover comes with me in absolutely any conditions, from a 100F summer trip in Zion to a 20F degree trip in Utah in November. Fleece works great for moisture management, dries quickly, still warm when wet, super durable in high abrasion conditions (fleece is the ONLY thing that survives narrow sandstone slot canyons relatively unscathed, where even 3-mm thick vinyl is destroyed). If it’s too windy and cold for a fleece pullover on the move, throw on a shell jacket. Fleece just seems like a more universal piece of equipment, compared to a wind shirt.

What I mean, BTW, is the “real” fleece, the fabric with two velvety surfaces, not the stuff that has “crocheted” face that popped up recently under the name of fleece. There was a period that stores were flooded with that stuff and real fleece was getting hard to find, but fortunately vendors seem to have taken a hint and these “crocheted” things are now fewer.

Also, not all fleece is made equal. I have a 10-year old REI fleece baselayer pullover that is in a better condition than 1-year old Mountain Hardwear pullover. Too bad, there’s not really a way to detect a low quality fabric.

[Lester Moore]

For years I used a simple 3 layer system that was very versatile for summer/Fall hiking and peak climbing in Colorado: long sleeve zip-T base layer, mid-weight fleece pullover and a mid-weight rain shell ( and down jacket for camp or sitting on summits). I like how breathable fleece is and warm enough when it’s cold and windy (along with a long sleeved base layer), while working hard. If it’s warmer, or less windy, the long sleeve base layer alone is fine, and keeps the sun off too. I’m experimenting with a light wind jacket and RailRiders sun shirt to replace a fleece layer, and so far, so good for 3 season use.

[Dale Wambaugh]

Polartec is the 800 pound gorilla for fleece. The lable is usually in the side seam. No lable, no Polartec.

By “crocheted” I assume you mean “sweater” fleece. That stuff is fine around town, but far too heavy for hiking. I found the Patagonia version pills badly.

A lot of these questions can be answered by putting on different layers and going for a walk around the block.

If you go for a day hike on a blustery day, take a bigger pack with a bunch of layers and experiment. I think most people have issues on the trail because they don’t want to stop and swap things out.

The biggest issues are wearing what works and determining that by empirical means a la Richard Nisley’s data, vs wearing what you “love” or is fashionable.

Forget what you think about what works at the bus stop or grocery shopping: think walking uphill with a full pack.  Or better yet, walk up a local hill awearing your pack and what layers  you think will work. Your gear doesn’t know if you are on city pavement or forest trails.

You can sit in the back yard with your rest stop and camp layers on and get a good test this time of year in the Northern Hemispere. I’d rather know what works before I’m on the trail!

 

[Aaron]

In usual three seasons temps, a fleece is generally way too much for me. If I’m getting light rain or wind, I’ll toss on my windshirt (the BD Alpine Start is quite breathable). I only toss on my rain shell if its an actual downpour – I overheat in all the ones I’ve tried pretty quickly.

I’m pretty sure the answer is everyone is different. What works for Skurka may not work for you, and vice versa.

[Michael Sirofchuck]

I prefer a lightweight fleece over my base layer unless it is really windy.  Wind helps keep me dry and, ironically, warm when hiking with fleece.

 

[Justin Baker]

A fleece and a windshirt are two different types of clothing that serve different functions. A fleece is air permeable insulation. A windshirt blocks the wind and can also provide some warmth even when not windy. You can have a windshirt, or you can have a windshirt and fleece, but never go with just a fleece unless you plan on using your rain gear for wind, which is uncivilized, and if you like using rain gear for wind then why do you even own a windshirt in the first place?

[Brad Rogers]

I think this just goes to show that different things work for different people.  I haven’t found a fleece to be a good windshirt replacement but obviously Skurka has and he has backpacked more miles than all of us.

 

[Paul Magnanti]

What works for Skurka may not work for you, and vice versa.

There is a reason why Baskin Robins makes 31 flavors after all… :)

As for miles hiked…that certainly helps. But any active backpacker should have enough of an experience base at some point as to what works for them.  Regardless of what works for Andrew or some short, bald guy  for that matter… That is what is important in the end.

re: Using what I love

Hmm..should I use something that doesn’t work for me instead? :D  See comment about an experience base above. ;)

 

[Dale Wambaugh]

I went to Skurka’s blog and he does indeed say that he uses a fleece as a second layer rather than a windshirt.

I think he’s really saying that he doesn’t use windshirts. While I might wear a windshirt as a second layer (over my base layer), i always use it as my outer layer. It’s just a conceptual twist.

Most of my hiking is on the west side of the Washington Cascades. Read overcast, cool, wet and changeable. Walking in dark forest at 50f-ish temps with sporadic drizzle and light wind is a typical scenario. A 4oz wind shell is perfect when it’s just a little to cold. I could see wearing a fleece, but it wouldn’t fare as well in light precip and too porous for wind— better than nothing at all. My system leans to using a poncho/cape for rain gear and a windshirt marries well with that choice too.

My view is that fleece is insulation and a wind shell is an outer layer preventing convection heat loss. While both are aimed at warmth and weight efficient layering, there are two different principles of physics at play.

Skurka’s blog on his clothing system choices:

http://andrewskurka.com/2015/backpacking-clothing-systems-3-season-conditions/

[Brett Peugh]

I have been using my fleece in lieu of my windshirt the last few years below 50F.  If keeps me warm but breathes really well.  It can shirk off light wind and rain.  And as it gets closer to freezing, the rain increases and/or the wind picks up I can just put a shell over top of it very easy to warm up.

 

Of course it really depends on the fleece.  Something like the Polartec Thermal Pro that they use in the R2 and the Monkey Man really shines like this because it breathes so well but becomes great insulation under a shell.  PowerShield and other tightly woven ones, not so much.

[Terry Sparks]

It’s kinda funny how you get all these different answers, based on the experiences of the person responding.

You mention that Andrew Skurka prefers fleece over a wind shirt but, without knowing the conditions he is talking about, how can you get anything other than a general answer?

For me, I like a wind shirt or rain jacket over fleece because fleece doesn’t do much without it becsuse of its open weave.  I do most all of my hiking in So. Cal where it’s dry and this system may not work in other climates and hence the different answers.

[Ryan Jordan]

What is not being said here is that Andy runs freezing cold most of the time due to his outrageous metabolism/fitness. The only reason he didn’t write an article called “wind shirt vs. winter parka” was out of fear of speaking his version of the truth. I’ve never hiked with anyone who shivered more at the hint of a northerly breeze!

Seriously, though. Take both? A wind shirt is 2 to 4 ounces. Paired *with* a light fleece in very cold weather, it’s pure bliss while on the move, and a great setup for dry precip (cold snow). Much better than having a rain shell!

And how about a wind shirt *under* a fleece – that’s a pretty sweet combo for wintertime on the move as well, with the psuedo-VB effect and resistant to the “flash-off” of sweat that chills you so bad when you stop…

[Andrew Skurka]

Just saw this thread featured in the BPL e-newsletter and pulled it up since it’s a topic of interest. Didn’t know I had inadvertently initiated it, too.

I’ve already made my fleece v windshirt argument, but I’ll repeat a few points and offer some more context:

1. The aforementioned post was part of a long series in which I detailed 13 essential items of clothing that can be mixed-and-matched to create appropriate clothing systems for all 3-season conditions in North America and many other parts of the world. In this post, then, I’m really arguing that fleece is a more valuable “Core 13” item than a windshirt, and not necessarily that windshirts aren’t better in some situations.

2. A fleece may not block the wind like a windshirt, but it’s more insulative, and I believe that net warmth is about the same even in light or moderate winds. In calmer air, it’s definitely warmer, and less likely to trap moisture.

3. Fleece is about as warm as a windshirt, and it has an entirely other role, too: as a mid-layer between a hiking shirt and WP/B garment in cold or cold-and-wet conditions. As a mid-layer, a windshirt is relatively worthless.

4. If it’s so cold and/or windy that a fleece is not enough on its own, put on your WP/B shell. In those conditions, there will be more than enough airflow through the jacket (especially if your jacket has some venting features) to offset the limited breathability of a WP/B shell vs that of a windshirt.

5. As RJ said, there is minimal penalty for taking a windshirt. It’s really not necessary, but it will allow you to fine-tune your comfort better than a clothing system without this piece.

6. After a few uses, DWR-treated wind shirts are completely ineffective protection against precipitation, unless it’s so light than it’s evaporating as quickly as it’s falling, but in that case the experience would be no different than with a fleece.

[chris smead]

Holy cow THE Andrew Skurka just responded to my thread!!!  Dude I read “the ultimate hikers gear guide” and loved it.  Much wisdom in that book.

And yes…good point about bringing both.  I’ll probably bring both on a shorter trip and try to avoid using the wind shirt to see how it goes.  If I don’t miss it, I’ll ditch it for longer trips where I’m counting ounces (without going “stupid light”)  ;)

-Chris

 

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