Extremely cold at night and don't know why

[Garrett]

I’ve recently been backyard camping to experiment with my sleeping tolerance. That said, I find it hard to believe that I am this cold of a sleeper. I’ve had to bail the past couple of nights around 3am. I start off warm and comfortable (not sweating) and wake up freezing.

The weather’s low has been around 30-36F in Louisiana (humid I guess). I’ve been sleeping on my upstairs balcony’s ”hard surface” if this matters at all…

Equipment breakdown:

• Cat’s Meow 20 degree sleeping bag (no extra space in the foot box)
• Therma-rest All Seasons sleeping pad – 4.9R value
• Wool socks
• Smartwool 250 mid-weight bottoms (not constricting)
• Smartwool 250 mid-weight top (not constricting)
• Houdini windshirt

The sleeping bag is clinched down at the head to create limited air exchange. I’ve seen people suggest synthetic or down in their sleeping bag, however this wouldn’t be a concern in 30F weather right?? Any suggestions? Thanks!

 

 

[Steven Paris]

Just to clarify, are you on a deck/balcony with air below?

[Ken Thompson]

A tight foot box. That’s an issue. Bag too short?

What did you have to eat?

[Kattt]

If you are on a deck/balcony then the cold air below you is my first thought. You would need really good bottom insulation, a really warm pad.

[Garrett]

There is a void of passive air between the balcony’s decking underneath, however the boards were nails without any space from one another.

[Garrett]

The bag is pretty much perfect in length I believe. Its not compressing the insulation or tight as I still have some play in the foot-box.

I plan on utilizing a 1/8” or 1/4” GG foam pad in the backcountry for protection “underneath the pad”. This definitely would be worth a shot for testing. I know top placement is better, however I really want to protect the pad underneath and don’t want to bring along two pads.

[Garrett]

I eat a black beans and a PB&J about two hours before bedtime every night.

Its just strange to me how I go from 40F at 9pm feeling warm and toasty to freezing to death at 30-36F degrees around 3am.

[Greg Mihalik]

North Face Cat’s Meow –

30°F is below the EN Comfort level, which is an “ideal world” temperature to start with. It’s amazing they market it as a 20° bag, 2° below the Lower Limit.

Also, you could be a “cold sleeper” needing a warmer bag.  I need about 10° more bag to stay comfortable for a given temperature, like you, in the early morning hours. My Resting Metabolic Rate is 1600 calories, or 67 calories a hour when sleeping. Just not enough to keep me warm.

A few more ounces of down is the most weight-efficient  solution.

[Garrett]

Ahh Greg that helped my understanding quite a bit. When people say cold sleepers need to add 10F more to their bag I just assumed it was in reference the the actual bag number, which is currently 20F (not the actual comfort rating of the bag). This is why I went with a 20F bag for 30F weather. Boy do I feel like a dummy : ) ..

Im a 10 on the dust mites allergy scale, so not sure down would be the best choice for me. A 10F synthetic bag sure seems unflattering to say the least lol, however it may leave me with little in choice.

[Michael K]

I would make two suggestions:

1. You need some more head insulation.  Your choices would be a down or fleece jacket with a hood or a fleece, wool, or down hood.
2.   Ditch the wind shirt.  That houdini wind shirt is not very breathable (only 3-4 cfm) and it definitely is not breathable enough for sleeping in……so it is likely to leave you moist especially in that humidity.  I’d replace this with a fleece like a Patagonia Cap 4  or a no name microfleece etc.  However, a significantly more breathable wind shirt could perhaps work, but I still don’t think they are ideal for planned sleeping clothes (like a squawmish or BD alpine start hoody)

[Matt Dirksen]

Garrett,

How old is your Cat’s Meow? (That sleeping bag model has been around for a long time, and since it’s synthetic, the older the bag is, the less reliable the temp rating is.)

Regarding the floor: since you are not on the ground, it’s likely your system is dealing with much lower surface temperatures than normally encountered if you were sleeping directly on the ground. By early morning, it’s highly likely an elevated patio would equalize with the air temp (whereas the ground surface would never approach freezing).  As others have said, adding a ccf pad will likely help a lot.

One thing you could possibly do is add several sleeping pads to your system (or perhaps drag a bed mattress outside) then see how you fare. If you sleep well with just the sleeping bag with it’s current setup, than your mattress my be the primary culprit.

The general problem with all of this is there are tons of variables that you are dealing with in this situation, and you may have to go through a bunch of trials before you can confidently know what “works best for you.” But most folks tend to undervalue the sleeping pad under them, and it doesn’t help that the R-values are a little more that marketing fluff at this point, since there’s no independent rating (like EN). Unless it’s a ccf pad, I would treat their ratings with a grain of salt.

[JCH]

Garrett, I know you probably don’t want to hear this, but the first thing I would do is ditch the synthetic fill bag.  Down is much warmer for the weight, compresses better and lasts forever if taken care of.  The new(er) hydrophobic down treatments also mean it is much easier to keep your down bag dry(er) than in the past, which to some extent mitigates the value of synthetic fill.  That said, I will be surprised if we don’t get some responses arguing against what I just said :)  I too never considered myself a cold sleeper, but find I’m not comfortable unless the bag is rated 10 deg below the actual temperature…this is wearing base layers similar to what you are wearing.

As mentioned by others, sleeping on a deck is not representative of how you will sleep in the woods.  If you want to really test your system, you must find a way to sleep exactly as you will during the hike…same clothes, same bag, same pad, same shelter, same ground.

Finally, I don’t see where you list what you wear on your head.  I consider a good fleece beanie a requirement.  I would also suggest you look at down socks/booties…not terribly expensive and for me make all the difference in the world when temps drop below freezing.

 

[Garrett]

Michael,

1. My head tends to run hot for some reason (sometimes overly hot, so I will occasionally clinch the bags head around my neck instead). Generally its my thighs near my femora artery that tends to get overly cold. That said, I always stash a balaclava in the bag with me just in case.
2. Thats a good point, especially with the humidity concern. I don’t feel sweaty, but then again I know wool is has the ability to hold moisture without one noticing.

I would use my insulated jacket for my upper body’s extra layer. The bottom layer well… Im still at odds. If I can’t find a solution, which hopefully its a sleeping pad issue then ill likely just swap all my mid/heavy base layers with a LW base layer and add a LW DIY internal synthetic quilt modified from my snug pack blanket or other source. I pretty much don’t use the mid-weights on the trail or at camp anyways.

 

Matt,

I bought the bag about a month ago and don’t use a compression sack for storage (or trail).

You make a good case for the sleeping pad. I really like the idea of using multiple sleeping pads for verification. The more I think about it the more I feel a sleeping pad would likely be the weakest link. I have a cold front coming through on Friday. Ill likely camp out in the grass instead and use multiple layers of sleeping pads.

[Garrett]

Oh lord don’t put me through the synthetic or down contemplation again…

Dust mites create a somewhat asthma effect on me. That said, I sleep with 2-3 cats by my side every night, so Im not sure how much of a difference down would truly make….

I really wish you wouldn’t have said that lol. Is there a down bag that you would recommend?

[Paul S.]

Good down options:

• Mummy REI Magma 10
• Quilts / hoodless bags (Enlightened Equipment, Underground Quilts, Nunatak)

[Greg Mihalik]

Stuff you probably know but others might not.

Borrow someones High Quality down bag or quilt and see if you end up with sniffles and puffy eyes. 8-(

[JCH]

What Greg said :)  Nothing worse that spending big bucks on a down bag then finding out you are allergic. Not sure how dust mites would be a problem with Down and not with Synthetic, but then I don’t have that problem :)

The REI bag that Paul references is a good bag…there are lots of good bags out there depending on how much you want to spend.  I’m partial to Western Mountaineering, which are some of the best out there.  Some of the most expensive too, but you will likely have it forever.  I have converted to EE quilts…I’m not going back.

 

[Matt Dirksen]

“Ill likely camp out in the grass instead and use multiple layers of sleeping pads.”

Just keep in mind if you are camping under the stars and in the grass, you will very likely run into potential condensation / dew point issues. Louisiana dirt tends to have a LOT of moisture built into it, if I recall :>D

Also, if you really want to diagnose what the “problem” is, I wouldn’t change too many variables all at once, or it might be hard to truly pinpoint what the weak link is.

good luck!

Matt

[Garrett]

Thanks for the link Greg. I have been tested for dust mites on a scale of 1-10 I was a 10 : (

JCH im curious to see if you noticed any heat loss while using a quilt compared to a fully enclosed bag? Any cons that you encounter during the transitison between the two?

Matt, the dirt is highly moisturized to say the least lol. I have an EE Recon for the condensation issues. Might try the same pad on regular ground before adding the additional layers first. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Todd T]

Why would dust mites be a (bigger) problem with down than synthetic insulation?  They don’t eat down or feathers, they eat your dead skin.  I’m assuming here that you wear the same skin regardless of the bag’s insulation type. :-)

[JCH]

I moved to quilts because I found myself using my WM Megalight unzipped as a quilt 80% of the time.  The other 20% was when it was really cold and I would move all the down to the top for max warmth.  Sounds a lot like a quilt at that point doesn’t it?  I have used an 10* EE Enigma on a NeoAir Xlite down to 14* with cap4 base layers, down puffy parka and down socks…toasty.  Where I hike that’s about as cold as it’s going to get

A lot of people seem to have problems with drafts when using a quilt…most of these people refer to themselves as “active sleepers”. I don’t know how I compare to them, but I do rearrange my position at least 10 times per night and have never had a draft problem.  I will say that when I rearrange I’m very aware of the fact that I am moving…if you toss around without waking up I can see where a quilt will probably not be for you.  Also the quilt needs to be the right length and width.  At 6’1″, 220 lbs the regular/wide EE fits me well.  I find that with the neck cord pulled semi-snug, when I lie on my back the sides just naturally “snap under” me.  When side sleeping I have to be aware of tucking the edges under me, but stay just as warm under my quilt as I did in the WM bag.

I asked the same question as Todd…I don’t see how dust mites would be any worse with a down bag than with synthetic.

[Garrett]

Todd, I use to wonder the same thing. Apparently down holds moisture better creating a greater environment with humidity for mites to reproduce. Supposedly dust mites are more attracted to natural fibers than synthetic. That said, who really knows …

JCH, Interesting I’m going to have to look into some.. like the EE Enimga Apex ; )

 

UPDATE: Following Matt’s advice, I slept last night under my 1/4” GG,zlite SOL, and Thermarest all season inflatable and I was extremely surprised by the outcome. Last night’s low was at 38-40F and I was able to sleep with my bag halfway zipped/open wearing only LW base layers!! Not only just able, but toasty and comfortably.

Ill need to wait until the weather falls to 30F to really distinguish the comparison, however I feel pretty confident claiming the sleeping pad/decking as the source.

 

 

[Rob]

Get a down bag or quilt and control the dust mites.  Tumbling in a 150 degree dryer before you use it will kill the mites.  You could also lay your quilt out in the cold to kill them.

[JCH]

Agree with Robert.

I also don’t think replacing a synthetic bag with a synthetic quilt is going to net you any more warmth.  Not to mention that once you sleep under down, you’ll never go back.

[Author]

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