Don't like bear canisters….don't like to hang my food…any suggestions?

Malto,

You go to great lengths to determine if food protection is required, hiked all these trails and used your food as pillow 90% of the time.  Sure.  Something doesn’t add up.  Your pulling out legs.  Right?

The problem?

The problem clearly is that malto  and others are rolling the dice. No one can get inside a bears head and know why they attack humans, and in the end it really doesn’t matter. You eliminate the obvious factors in the equation, food being the big one, and move on.

He is also basing his actions on what he and others have gotten away with not what seems to most thoughtful folks to be good outdoorsmanship. The biggest part of safe food practice is the separation of food and humans. The farther apart the association the better. Even a bad hang away from your camp will somewhat disassociate the connection if the bear accesses it but if Malto has an emboldened bear enter his tent and scores his food….well do you think that will be the last time. Bears are associating humans with food closely when they camp and cook in the same area and when they get ambushed for food or steal it when unattended as mentioned above.

Hikers are not the only ones. Its idiots that leave trash around in communities that bears frequent now that they have become trash pickers. People think it ‘s oh so cute when the bears tear down their bird feeders and look in the window of their houses. Just a photo op for these delinquents. You may think your ok sleeping with your food but the more emboldened the bears get the more they will think nothing of coming at you at night for food if they smell it. And then if they smell it or not they will assume its there. They are a hell of a lot smarter at getting our food than we are of protecting it. They also quite frankly don’t give a shit if you get hurt in the process.

I don’t know how old some of these folks are here but I remember a time in the Yellowstone when the bear behavior was so ridiculous they were ripping the tops off aluminum campers like they were sardine cans. People were feeding them relentlessly. They were also doing crazy shit with their kids to get a freakin photo. When I returned decades later the bear management was remarkable. But it took that long to get it turned around. If  bears are not frequenting camps now for food what the hell do you think their after. I remember in the High peaks of the ADK’s when I was warned going into the woods by a ranger of bears ambushing people at camp sights after they dumped their packs. The bears certainly knew you were carrying food and they knew the easiest way to get it. Why spend time tearing thru a BP when the human will pull it out for you.

I think I’m wasting my time here. I’m not gonna change any ones mind so why bother. They say there’s another one born every minute.

“I have hiked over a thousand miles in the Sierra plus the JMT, SHR, TRT, PCT, Wonderland trail, Bob Marshall Wilderness, several thousand miles on the AT, Colorado trail, WInd River Range, Tetons, adirondaks, Yellowstone and a bunch of misc trails all over the east. I also own three bear canisters and an Ursack and can do a pretty good bear hang if there is a good tree. So while I don’t always use my food as a pillow, I do over 90% of the time if it is not required and I go to great lengths to make sure it’s not required. Using my food bag as a pillow is clearly a choice and far preferable to a poor hang which is what I usual see on the trail.”

Us and the hundreds (maybe thousands) of long trial thru hikers that haven’t had any problems (because all I ever hear from AT thru hikers are that after the first couple weeks you won’t see anybody bearbagging their food), are just terrible stupid people, apparently these internet guys know it all. It’s funny how hikers in person can generally be the kindest people, but throw them behind a computer screen, and they become angry know-it-alls who refuse to listen to others experiences. I truly don’t give a rat’s ass what you think of me or the way I hike. Seems like there’s not a lot of reason to throw in your 2 cents in here, you know, since you’ve guys already have it all figured out. I’m going to go hike a 53 mile trail next week, here in the pine barrens of NJ where there are no bears, and I’m again not going to hang my food from a tree far away and I’m not going to care what a bunch of people on the internet I’ll never meet thinks of it.

One thing I thought of that I’m sure no one cares or will just say I’m lying, but, anytime I’m in black bear country, I do my method of only using a odor proof bag and have never had an issue overnight, yet all of the time on lazy mornings, after cooking/eating breakfast, then slowly packing up and slowly getting back on trail, a bear will pop into camp and say hello. In the morning, after food was cooked. Funny how they’ve never bothered it at night. I’m not a big thru hiker, by every year I do 2 week long trips, and spend about 35 weekends a year or more hiking (fri-sun), still not so much as a racoon has ever bothered me. Something to think about, or not, because you guys already know I clearly must be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fZ6KmVbDeU

Man, have you guys seen these three inexperienced yahoos? I know the one to the right only uses an opsak and doesn’t bearbag. The guy in the middle I’ve heard puts all his food in a cheap plastic grocery bag that you know isn’t getting hung in a tree, and I’m also pretty sure that dumby on the left who must also be endangering everyone else’s lives, doesn’t bear bag either. These retards must be inexperienced, clearly they need to come here or else they are just going to get everyone else eaten by bears.

(oh, what, you heard three youtubers don’t do it so you don’t?) No, just an example of someone who just possibly may have hiked more miles than you.

 and I’m again not going to hang my food from a tree far away and I’m not going to care what a bunch of people on the internet I’ll never meet thinks of it.

Ah, there it is. That says it all…you Go GIRL!

Living in a place where two people just died this summer from bear attacks, having  friends who’ve been mauled, living up here for so many years and hearing story after story, I can’t believe anyone would take such chances as to think they could fight a bear off their food, in a bag tucked under the pillow, like a quarter for the tooth fairy.

I can’t imagine getting bear advice from anyone’s anecdotes, no matter how many miles they’ve hiked. That person is not an expert. Not worth taking chances, no matter how successful you’ve been the past; maybe you’ve just gotten lucky. Look at the studies, the science, and go to the real experts on this one.  Try Stephen Herero or visit your local library to find actual knowledge on which to base your food storage practices in bear country. Not worth screwing up even once! The stakes are too high.

I’m sorry if one of my responses has turned this ugly.  As my son would say “trigger alert”.  I don’t hang with too many thru hikers, other than brief meetings on the PCT, but I certainly respect their experience.  Ironically it’s often via the internet, like the Q&A video linked above or responses here, that I get their advice.

Chris S and JimmyB…It is worth sharing your experience, and also trying to understand the other responses, even if worded harshly or sarcastically (I’ll speak for myself).   I think Malto and Chris S must understand that it’s a reasonable suggestion that protecting your food could protect the bears.  And, you should believe that we can still care about the bears, even if we don’t get to hike thousands of miles or scores of nights in their territory each year.  Wanting to learn about bears, and other outdoor wonders is something I hope we all have in common here.

Do thousands of miles without a nighttime bear encounter make anyone an expert in bear behavior?  Clearly not, but I do find your breakfast story interesting.  Do you think it’s the smell of food cooking (is my instant oatmeal going to attract anyone?  Is it the lurking bears making a last ditch ploy for you to leave your food behind as you run away in horror?  I’m not suggesting I know the answer.  Maybe there are better explanations.  I found this book dispelled many myths I had heard before about bears.  Backcountry Bear Basics: The Definitive Guide to Avoiding Unpleasant Encounters (Mountaineers Outdoor Basics).    I know reading doesn’t replace experience, but this is how we learned stuff before the experts (true and false) starting making videos.

I’m going to go hike a 53 mile trail next week, here in the pine barrens of NJ where there are no bears

“No bears in the Pine Barrens.”

Even with the laziest of google-foo it was easy to find out that black bears have been finding their way back into the Pine Barrens. There doesn’t seem to be a cocensus why there is not a reproducing population there yet, but there is a concensus they are there none the less.

http://www.pinelandsalliance.org/ecology/wildlife/mammals/

I have never claim to be an expert on anything just relaying the experiences of myself and countless others folks experience with. There are few topics other than guns and dogs that get the reaction on blogs than a bear thread but I really believe there is something to the possession theory that others have developed.  I probably should have mentioned a few other points that probably explains why I have never had a late night bear visit.

1) I rarely, as in never, cook where I sleep.

2) I usually don’t have smelly trash.

3) I am more likely to camp in an undeveloped camp than a highly established campsite.

3) I am more likely to camp in an undeveloped camp than a highly established campsite.

Some pretty week arguments. Especially this last one.

Your philosophy seems to be “because I’ve never had an auto accident I don’t need a seatbelt.”

Continued good luck…

I’m going to go hike a 53 mile trail next week, here in the pine barrens of NJ where there are no bears

“No bears in the Pine Barrens.”

Even with the laziest of google-foo it was easy to find out that black bears have been finding their way back into the Pine Barrens. There doesn’t seem to be a cocensus why there is not a reproducing population there yet, but there is a concensus they are there none the less.

http://www.pinelandsalliance.org/ecology/wildlife/mammals/

That’s friggin hilarious!!

Well, I guess you know my own backyard better then I do from way over in Montana. You know, because the internet doesn’t lie. Honestly though, if that was the only thing you looked at to tell me my backyard has bears in it, I’m not sure what to tell you, trying not to be a dick like you are.THERE IS ABSOLUETLY NO BEAR POPULATION IN THE PINE BARRENS WHATSOEVER. I don’t care what internet website you’ve read. There was reports of one single bear that managed to migrate down here, it was seen in manchester. That was a long time ago and have not heard anything about it since. It was a big new article, well, because, THERE’S NO FRIGGIN BEARS IN THE NJ PINE BARRENS.

Ridiculous comments like ” don’t you know the internet is saying there’s bears in your backyard” ( when I can say with 100% confidence there’s not) tells me you don’t always know what your talking about, and to take what you say with a grain of salt.

I’m sorry you feel like you need to be the big man telling people that they don’t know what they’re doing or don’t know their own backyard. Not sure why you guys feel the need act  the way you do, thinking you’re the all knowing.

I am still cracking up at you pointing out that dumb link to tell me my backyard is full of bears! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

 trying not to be a dick like you are

maybe try a little harder, no need to pee your panties over this.

Geez this is so  much fun I can hardly contain myself (NOT!). I love a good conversation based on facts and actual experiences with a great deal of contemplation for how our actions will impact the future well being of all. But watching someone self destruct like this is so much more entertaining.

In my very not so humble opinion and void of any trace of political correctness, when I hear someone use an Absolute of 100% assurance about anything short of death being inevitable the first thing I think is that you have just not the experience to understand that this dynamic world of ours does not provide such assurances. Live long enough and you will find those nice fuzzy feelings of thinking you have it all figured out have a way of crashing down on you at any given minute.

Your comment about the thrus on the AT sleeping with their food is certainly true but if you spent a little more time talking to them you will find almost all of them will admit it is due to laziness and complacency. I haven’t yet met one that advocates or recommends the practice. They are at least honest enough to admit this to themselves and others.

+1 to the comment that hiking a huge number of miles somehow makes one a genius of sorts is a bit of a stretch. I have as much passion for this activity as most anyone here but lets face it, it ain’t rocket science and I don’t inflate my ego thinking I am special in any way by doing little more than talking a walk in the woods and sleeping in a tent. I do admire very much the physical abilities folks have to complete these journeys as I was not blessed with such. And sure long hikes can take an immense amount of planning. and there are certainly areas in which it is much riskier to travel but again it doesn’t mean much more than one is willing to take the risks.

Different areas require different approaches depending on bear activity or lack thereof.

whether or not any individual has hiked thousands of miles in the Sierra without hanging or using a canister and never lost food is sort of moot. The fact is that before canisters were required I would very often meet groups of people or individuals who had lost their food to bears. In some areas it was predictable. Because of canisters, that situation has changed radically.

In those days I would also occasionally meet people who slept with their food; usually a couple. I did the mental test of imagining myself sleeping with food by myself and realized it wasn’t for me. Further, I’m active in my campsite and go on short hikes or get water, maybe firewood. Over time it would never work to leave my food unattended–marmots or bears would get it for sure. I certainly don’t want to haul it with me all the time, which is what the ‘keep food in your possession’ philosophy requires. Frankly I don’t believe that philosophy would work over time for most people–and remember, the op wanted advice on how to not have to hang food or carry a canister. Bears can be in your camp and take food within seconds. And now the whole unhealthy cycle is running again. Bears can’t digest the packaging that freeze dried food comes in and it can kill them. I really couldn’t care less if anyone loses their food because they wouldn’t store it properly. A dead bear I care about.

 A dead bear I care about.

Yes indeed. Or as Karen so thoughtfully pointed out a mauled, or possibly worse, fellow sportsman.

I don’t have a bear in this fight so to speak.. Curious about something though.  One of the reasons why I often camp somewhat near, but not in AT shelters or the immediate area (I have, but overall I don’t like them), is to take advantage of the hanging poles.

I’ve noticed that there is a lot of cooking that goes on within or near these, and general strong odors are not uncommon, especially during the typical thru hike season.

The area I hike in and near,  has one of the most dense black bear populations in the country.

Yet attacks and food stealing seems to be rare. I’ve rarely ever seen any bears personally. Do the bears in this area just have more and better natural food sources, are more shy, etc?  I’ve always been curious about why there isn’t more human-bear interaction when there are so many bears around, and AT shelters are hot beds of various different strong food and other smells.

I doubt everyone that comes to or through these AT trail areas hangs their food all the time. I can pretty much see everyone’s points/logic here. I prefer to hang to be on the safe side.

. I prefer to hang to be on the safe side.

And speaking only for myself this would be my point in a nut shell.

Once again I will say I haven’t the powers to read the minds of bears but I can comfortably say that an animals waking hours in the wild is consumed with the pursuit of food. My part of this discussion concerns preventive maintenance if you will, not so much bear behavior because it varies so much from region to region.

I just spent some time at Rainier this year (incredible place) and they use the flimsiest of bear poles because they are yet to have a population of bears that are ill behaved I guess. That wouldn’t fly in many places around the country. I would very much like to see a better system to prevent that first mishap that quiet possibly will start the ball rolling down hill.

In grizzly country in the present I think they have learned from their past mistakes that management is not only a good idea but essential to the safety of their visitors.

I have never seen more bear in my life than a week I spent in the Shenandoah (9 all together) but our encounters where fairly middle of the road. I was still concerned however of how bold these bears were compared to what I have been used to in our area in past years. I will tell you honestly parts of the Smokies would concern me with the knowledge of 2 bear attacks in two consecutive years within relatively the same area. Oh and the fact that it was so bad there once I have heard, that they put up chain link gates on some shelters?

Bears seem to be opportunists and will take the advantage when they can but put yourself in an animals shoes because we are little more than that. Their survival is dependent on their overall health. If they are injured in the pursuit of food they risk future acquisitions of the same. Yet if hungry enough they will go outside their comfort zone for sure. Year before last I was in a front country campground in Glacier awaiting our trip date and the black bears were all over the place seeking out the berries around camp. It was a terribly tough year for them and they were quite stressed. Hunger was driving their behavior more than their own common sense. I believe they were being bean bagged and I know for sure they were sprayed multiple times and kept coming back for more. I was much more comfortable in the back country even in the established camp sights in the midst of the grizzly bear population because I felt my fellow BPers were probably better with there food than the general population of any front country campground.

Its a great thing that you haven’t witness more bad interactions and I hope that continues but it is not a given for sure.

Most people believe (or used to believe) that bear attacks were mother bears protecting their young.  My take away from the book I mentioned is that it’s all about protecting food and not surprising the normal bear, with the rare and serious predatory bear encounter.  Not much actionable while sleeping on the surprise front or dealing with a predatory bear – that’s good info for the hiker, but not really the topic here.  Food protection seems to be the one thing you can do to avoid the dangerous encounter in camp, especially while sleeping.

BTW…I hadn’t checked out Ursack’s website lately.  I have the S29.3 AllWhite, and knew there was an Ursack Minor for mini-bears, but it looks like they changed that and also made the combo AllMightey at about 13 oz and $130.  It appears to have a shot at getting approved at Yosemite and Sequoia-Kings Canyon.  I will upgrade to it, if it’s approved.  Tying off to a tree seems like a no brainer for the OP.  The equivalent sized Bearikade Weekender is 31 oz and $288 was also on my radar – especially if a canister is required and I’m hiking long miles.  I’m just starting to plan a Philmont trip for next summer, and they have their own Philmont Way, which I hear involves bear-bagging almost everything that comes in contact with food.  It sounds like a pain, but I’ll comply with the land management rules.

First of all, canisters are NOT 100% effective. Here is a quote from the owner of Ursack that Andrew Skurka post posted on his blog:

A total of 85 approved bear canisters were either broken or stolen by Yosemite black bears between July 15, 2012 and July 11, 2017. During that same period, 2 Ursacks failed (1 incident was mistakenly reported twice). All of the Ursacks were older models—not IGBC approved. Ursacks were not allowed in Yosemite during this period.

This information was gleaned from a comprehensive spreadsheet of wilderness bear incidents provided to us by Yosemite. Some of the information in the report is difficult to precisely analyze because the narratives crammed into the spreadsheet are truncated. But as best we can determine, 30 approved canisters were broken enough that a bear got a food reward. Another 55 were rolled or batted away from camp and never recovered. Many others were rolled away from camp but were eventually found.

So those who are chastising Malto, may want to consider their canister is not guaranteed to work.

I operate pretty much the same as Malto — when I am solo. If a canister is required, I bring one. If not required, but there is a history of numerous bear encounters, I bring an older Ursack with the old style closure that I tie according to the instructions and use an Opsack, although I question its ability to eliminate odors. I never hang a bag using the PCT or other methods. Also I am not sleeping in established camp sites and am usually far from any trail. When not using a canister or Ursack, I sleep with my food… and site selection along with not cooking at camp are critical factors.

On my infrequent trips with other people in bear country, and where there are no rules for protecting food from bears, I usually bring a Ursack and tie it to a thick tree branch, because I don’t have control over how others handle their food (this isn’t a criticism of others).

I suspect bears behave differently in different locations.  On the AT, most hikers simply hang their food on small hooks from the ceiling beams of the shelters.  Then they cook right in the shelter.  Most places have no problems.

A few places, such as the Smokies, are different.  There have been bear problems.  They now have wires for hanging.  I suspect the problem is largely caused by the throngs of visitors that bears see in the Smokies.  They park or day hike with food.  Bears are used to people and associate them with food.

“A total of 85 approved bear canisters were either broken or stolen by Yosemite black bears between July 15, 2012 and July 11, 2017. During that same period, 2 Ursacks failed (1 incident was mistakenly reported twice). All of the Ursacks were older models—not IGBC approved. Ursacks were not allowed in Yosemite during this period.

This information was gleaned from a comprehensive spreadsheet of wilderness bear incidents provided to us by Yosemite. Some of the information in the report is difficult to precisely analyze because the narratives crammed into the spreadsheet are truncated. But as best we can determine, 30 approved canisters were broken enough that a bear got a food reward. Another 55 were rolled or batted away from camp and never recovered. Many others were rolled away from camp but were eventually found.”

Numbers are interesting things…….

55 + 30 = 85 incidents.

Out of how many trips? Numerators and denominators are BOTH needed to draw any useful conclusion about “effectiveness”.

It would be useful to know how many group/individual permits were issued (assuming full compliance on the part of permit holders) during that same period.
If it was 100000 permits issued, then 85/100000 is great. If it was 10000 permits 85/10000 is still pretty good (0.85 per cent failure rate). If it was 1000 permits……you get the point.

There’s no way to draw any conclusion about Ursacks as they haven’t been allowed in Yosemite AFAIK.

Also, if I’m the Ursack CEO (and I’m any good at my job) I’d try and paint my product in the best possible light. If you’re the potential buyer, as always, caveat emptor.

So for those of you who choose to sleep with your food, what will you do if a bear comes into your tent? You are assuming that a bear won’t,  right? which is why you have it in your tent in the first place; you think your presence in the tent will deter the bear from exploring. But on the chance that it does tear into your tent, what do you do then?

The OP’s basically asked what to do in areas where bear canisters are not required, but where bears may be present, and what to do as a possible preventative measure without hanging or using bear canisters.  Most of his hikes are in the Sierra’s, as are mine.  I rely on the rules and regulations to determine if I should bring a canister.  If the authorities having jurisdiction (AHJ) have no requirements, most likely it’s because probably the bears are either very sparse and afraid of humans and historically there has been no issues.  The AHJ should have a better understanding of what’s required rather than others second guessing.   The black bear range in Calif is quite large, and certain areas are much more prone to bear encounters than others and as such require bear canisters.  Other areas, where a bear encounter is extremely rare, such as Marin County or the Big Sur area, the odds of coming across a bear are extremely rare, and no bear canisters are required.  Sure, one can say if you’re in the black bear range you should have a bear canister, but the reality is we can’t take everything we need for every possible wildlife encounter or situation.

I’ve met people who have lost food to a bear while using a canister, but they all lost the food while preparing their meal and the canister was open.  One at Thousand Island Lake forgot her matches in her shelter, which was 10 feet away, and she left the canister open for not more than 10 seconds and when she turned around the bear was carrying it off.  Luckily, she was with six others so they were able to share enough food with her to make it back to the trail head.

Side Bar:  Last month, while hiking in the northern part of Yosemite, we set up camp in Matterhorn Canyon.  We had a good size fire going, there were 7 of us, so not a quiet site.   We had a fairly good size doe show up who was quite intent on stealing our food.   Geez, she was worse than any bear I’ve come across, none of us had seen anything like this before.   The odd thing was there was plenty of other natural food for her to eat, we were in a lush green meadow. We ended up finally chasing her away with pots and pans.  No telling if she came back in the middle of the night, but even if she did she wouldn’t have been able to get to anything as it was all in bear canisters.

“So for those of you who choose to sleep with your food, what will you do if a bear comes into your tent? You are assuming that a bear won’t, right? which is why you have it in your tent in the first place; you think your presence in the tent will deter the bear from exploring. But on the chance that it does tear into your tent, what do you do then?”

Earlier in this thread were two links to recent bear invasions into shelters.  In both cases they practiced “good” food protection (by your definition) so I’m not sure why you are any more confident in your safety.  So, I ask you, what would you do if a bear comes in your tent?  I suspect our answers would be about the same.

 Geez, she was worse than any bear I’ve come across

Lol, sounds like some GCNP squirrels we encountered.

EDIT = I like this one better

Ok just one more