- Jun 2, 2018 at 11:06 pm #3539873
Sometimes taking more base weight is the lightweight solution.
One of the reasons I still use the old style MSR Alpine pots system is that they stack well to salvage waste heat for melting snow but for my intended trip I need something more efficient
Thomas Ulrichs system is brilliant but unaffordable for me at this time
At this stage I am simply after ideas and any pictures or plans of gear that performs this function
A clone of the Scott stove using the XGK-EX is a possibility using a small stainless steel stockpot or thin sheet aluminium.
The stove and pot system is essential to survival so it would travel in a safe box secured to the sled/pulk so in itself it can be reasonably LW
In past winters when base camping I have used a variety of large windshields for fuel stoves to aid fuel efficiency, one of the best was simply an old cooking oil drum cut open at the top and opened at the front, the snow for melting sitting on some mesh cut to fit the hole on top.
One possibility is a one piece Angel cake pan used as the snow melter but those are a little shallow to hold much snowJun 6, 2018 at 3:46 am #3540466
Any thoughts anyone?Jun 6, 2018 at 6:55 am #3540503
Jan RezacBPL Member
@zkoumalLocale: Prague, CZ
I’d consider trying a pot with a heat exchanger. I think it is better to reduce the waste heat by using as efficient primary pot as possible, rather than trying to capture the waste heat by other means. The heat transfer is much more efficient when there is a large temperature gradient.
I’m using a HE pot with a solid base, high windscreen (to the rim of the pot) and insulated lid, and it feels like there’s not much usable heat leaving the system. If I stacked another pot on top of that, I guess it can easily loose more heat to the environment than it can extract. The next improvement would be using more reflective base/windscreen. I can hardly imagine anything more complex is worth the effort/money/weight for everything but really long expeditions.Jun 6, 2018 at 7:47 am #3540507
I’ve never seen a pot with heat exchanger big enough to melt snow to hydrate 4 people, perhaps if there is and it saved weight I will consider it. This is for a 30 to 40 day trek so the fuel saved by scavenging every last erg is important. I consider 30 to 40 days a reasonable length of time, we would like to equal Mawsons frugality and equal a gallon of stove fuel every 12 days or approximately 400ml a day but I don’t think any of us are as tough or as fit as Douglas Mawson so we have plans for 500ml a day plus extra
If an annular pot can’t be found or made we may just go with a simple fully enclosed choofer box with shelvesJun 7, 2018 at 12:58 am #3540624
plans for 500ml a day plus extra (for 4 people?)
For TWO of us in summer time I allow 30 g / day of canister gas.
For winter time in the snow I allow double that: 60 g/day.
I might push that up to 80 g/day for two if there was no water anywhere. Sue does like a warm breakfast in the snow.
Just how one gets from that to 250 g / day puzzles me. Could be something to do with the serious INefficiency of kero stove use in the field maybe?
CheersJun 7, 2018 at 1:30 am #3540626
No Roger it is to do with it being -40C in the Brooks Range in winter
Here I would use 50 to 100mls a day unless melting snow for lots of drinking water/coffee
-20C is easy enough but that next 15-20 degrees makes a lot of difference
If we can’t make the logistics work we’ll do something easier or take a snowmobile tourJun 7, 2018 at 1:57 am #3540629
-40 C ALL the time? I was under the impression that -40 C would be the serious lower limit to what might be expected – but I might be wrong. Could you be over-catering? (I don’t know.)
Here I would use 50 to 100mls a day
That is many times what I use. Are you talking about Shellite/white gas? We know from experience that white gas stoves are in practice in the field far more inefficient.
I am going to disagree with you about the difference between -20 C and -40 C in water temperature. The specific heat of ice is about double that of water, which is significant but not earth-shattering. So heating ice to 0 C will take a bit more energy, but melting it will take as much energy as heating water from 0 C to 100 C. That is, the actual melting is what takes the most energy (unless you really want boiling water).
CheersJun 10, 2018 at 7:34 am #3541240
I may be misunderstanding what people have been telling me but the Nansen design is all about shielding from the wind and extracting as much energy from the fuel as possible by making the hot air path as long as possible. Yes naturally we want boiling water as the freeze dried meals taste bad enough with out having to eat them cold but even if cooking in the tents vestibule the cold air is going to be cold air
-40C is a nominal planning temperature, it could well get a lot colder, it may well be a little warmer but if the locals tell me to plan for -40C then I’m planning for -40C Yep Shellite and 3 brews and 2 hot meals a day here in winter when touring.
A mate who has attempted what we plan to do said we were not be overly cautious although he and his partner used doubled XGK-EXs to cope with the extreme cold and used even more fuel than we are planning onJun 10, 2018 at 9:33 am #3541241
doubled XGK-EXs to cope with the extreme cold and used even more fuel than we are planning on
The XGKs are not known for great economy. Well, if you are using pulks it may not matter.
CheersJun 10, 2018 at 9:07 pm #3541322
Pierre DescoteauxBPL Member
I would love to find out more about this type of pot! Even better a lighter version of it! It may be just as good as using a caldera cone type of wind breaker but it makes sense to keep the unit (Stove, gas, plate) as one unit when space is not an issue (sled use). It saves time and keeps digits warmer.Jun 10, 2018 at 9:52 pm #3541330
Hum … could a UL Nansen cooker be the next magic goal?
Gentlemen – start your engines.
CheersJun 10, 2018 at 11:02 pm #3541340
In his book “Winter Wise” Monty Alford has an illustration of a home made double walled pot. Skirted pots to conserve heat and make boiling faster and more efficient have been around for a very long time, I believe the first iteration was during the Crimea War invented and developed by Alexis Soyer and the Soyer stove was still being used by the Australian Army in the 1970sJun 10, 2018 at 11:20 pm #3541345
CheersJun 11, 2018 at 1:11 am #3541356
Not the same The Soyer stove was a wood fired jacket boiler Roger, a very different beast to his Magic portable alcohol burnerJun 11, 2018 at 2:04 am #3541363
Oh, I know that. He was a fellow stovey: more than one invention.
CheersJun 11, 2018 at 6:28 am #3541390
Taking note of your posts on windshields Roger there would be an arguement in favour of a full depth skirt on such a pot if not using a direct clone of the Nansen stove I’m wondering how you would go about adding a skirt to a large pot.
I am thinking of Titanium foil, a series of spacers made from LW tubing and waterproof rivets but I could just use an empty paint tin with exhaust holes added at the top of the skirtJun 11, 2018 at 6:38 am #3541391
I think I need a bit of sketch here before commenting.
If I have understood, which is debatable, then such an arrangement sounds a bit clumsy and unpackable. Of course, I keep thinking in terms of a pack rather than a pulk.
CheersJun 13, 2018 at 1:33 am #3541802
Best I can do is an expired eBay link Roger.
Good pictures of the full vented skirt tho
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-Olicamp-Hurricane-Cooker-Stainless-Pot-Camping-Backpacking-Made-In-USA-/232703223045?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=lJ45btcAfD7AgygtQZ3epsv7u1g%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557Jun 13, 2018 at 1:36 am #3541804
Or this link to Amazon courtesy of ZelphJun 13, 2018 at 1:39 am #3541805
Didn’t know you were here on BPL Moondog :-)Jun 13, 2018 at 1:49 am #3541809
Yep Here too.
Picking all the brains I can before my big trip
Any idea what that skirted pot weighs? That information wasn’t in the add.
7 litres is about right tho for a snow melting pot for 4 persons and most of the other cooking gear should pack inside itJun 13, 2018 at 1:54 am #3541812
Ah so. I note in passing that ‘ultra-light’ is the latest marketing buzz-word. It even gets applied to copper-bottomed stainless steel pots. Fancy that!
Well, if I understand the diagrams correctly, then the vented skirt could be useful. However, I doubt that there would be all that much difference in performance between the Olicamp unit and a stock Ti pot with a good windshield around it.
Perhaps the biggest difference would be in weight. A light Ti foil or Al foil windshield is going to be a lot lighter than a rigid outer ‘tube’.
A caution to remember: if you choke the stove by having the windshield too close at the sides, you may seriously increase the CO levels. I tend to err slightly on the ‘lots of ventilation’ side as we always cook inside the vestibule.
Hum – I have thought about this but never done it. If you could find a very light pot which would sit on top of your cooking pot in the same way a lid might (ie clipped in), and you had a very high windshield coming up to near the top of the upper pot, that might make a very effective and light snow melting system.
EDIT: ah yes, the 7 L Stove Tec unit. I would not want to carry it for the two of us, but for 4 people with pulks … a thought.
Jun 13, 2018 at 2:00 am #3541817
- This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by Roger Caffin.
The pieces I’m putting together for you would have the skirted pot as your cooking pot.
I’ll see if I can find the weight for you.
You’re in good hands here with Roger being a fellow AussieJun 13, 2018 at 2:58 am #3541834
Good video of the pot:Jun 13, 2018 at 6:30 am #3541871
Jan RezacBPL Member
@zkoumalLocale: Prague, CZ
I’ve seen such a “skirted” pot made from a double-walled pot sold for heating milk (the space between the walls is filled with water to prevent burning the milk). These pots used to be available in plain aluminium, reasonably light and easy to hack. It used to be a popular DIY item among the winter campers.
Here’s a translation of an old article describing it: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.svetoutdooru.cz/svet-outdooru/dvojity-hrnec-jak-lepe-varit-v-zimnim-outdooru!/
Now, they sell only stainless steel ones, and the largest I found was 3 liters.
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