DCF Shelter failure during a hailstorm in Alaska – Skurka video

My new punk band name is Weight Creep. We only have one song.

“I only need to get through my lifetime without having my tent punctured by hail, I don’t need to get through 10 lifetimes.”

Yeah, exactly

Although if my tent was punctured by hail a time or two in my lifetime maybe that would be okay.  Maybe it should be that I don’t die from a failed tent during my lifetime.

Attempt to shift this topic to humor?

Silnylon users in a DCF hail thread…

(I spent the money I saved on popcorn)

Although if my tent was punctured by hail a time or two in my lifetime maybe that would be okay.  Maybe it should be that I don’t die from a failed tent during my lifetime.

I will accept that as a friendly amendment.  :-)

As far as setting up under a tree out here in drought-stricken California, I’m not sure I’d feel safer under a tree if a hailstorm came up.  I was in a car campground recently during a 2-hour pounding rainstorm in the Sierra, and I heard a huge branch crack and come crashing down in another site, though luckily not onto anyone’s tent or car.  I think there are a lot of stressed trees up there these days that might be susceptible to that, and I’m not sure I’d be able to assess the safety of any given site under a tree once the rain starts.  But I’ll certainly be looking more closely in the future for obvious widowmakers.

“and I heard a huge branch crack and come crashing down”

Doubtless a silnylon tent would have survived. (imagine a dry, ironic tone of voice).

Geez… all this angst,fuss and wailing and gnashing of teeth over DCF… summer hail storms don’t last that long… just put on your rain gear and either keep walking or stand under a tree or crouch under a leaning rock for an hour… then set up your DCF tent after it stops hailing… easy peasy

And if the hail storm starts at 2 am in the middle of the night?

Cheers

You sing a song “Holes in my tent” to the chorus “Hail, Hail, Hail…..”.

But your condensation problems will be gone:-) as there are more holes now:-)

Good point dk, a branch would be worse than hail

One time I was at a state park and a huge branch fell, but it didn’t do much damage.  If someone had their tent moved over a bit it could have been bad.  That was where experts examine all the trees and remove anything that looks dangerous.

Hail storms don’t start in the middle of the night in the Sierra. It’s an afternoon event. Other areas… dunno. Always know your area and it’s weather… and select gear accordingly…

“I will accept that as a friendly amendment.  :-)”

I’m just babbling.  No useful information.  Friendly, yes, but I have noticed that sometimes my babbling is taken as unfriendly :)

Hail storms don’t start in the middle of the night in the Sierra. It’s an afternoon event.
Good point.
Here on the E coast of Oz, they can be 24/7.

Cheers

“Here on the E coast of Oz, they can be 24/7.”

I have been on the E Coast of Oz… Byron Bay… storms can be scary there !!!

FWIW, a middle-of-the-night hailstorm would be very unusual in Colorado. I can’t say that I recall one. However, they are extremely common in the mountains from any time from noon until a little before it gets dark. In fact, some years it seems like an everyday occurrence; I notice it because of the dogs and usually try to find them some shelter. In my experience, even dogs that are extremely stoic can be pretty bothered by hail.

I’ve never been able to understand why anyone would opt for the .55 DCF over .75. A ZPacks Plex Solo for example in .75 weighs 1.5 oz more than same tent made with .55. Wow, such a big weight penalty to have a tent that’s much stronger and will last considerably longer than paper thin .55 oz Dyneema. The .75 cost a little more, but well worth it in terms of longevity and durability. And as far as being bulkier, yes, and it’s no big deal.

It makes sense to me that the spruce green (.75) would stand up to hail storms far better than the .55. And the lightest 20d silnylons and silpolys weigh 1.2 oz and up. That’s almost a half an ounce lighter for the .75. Quite a bit really.  It seems worth it to me.

Even 15D silnylon weighs around 1.,05 oz and 7D’s 0.8 oz.

Having bought several 0.5* DCF tents/tarps – the reasoning is based on data that said that people have done 3000 to 5000 miles or so using a 0.5* DCF tent saying it is plenty durable. No one said that 0.75 will fare better than 0.5* in hail etc. And here is a statement from Zpacks “materials” page where it says – the weight of 0.75 is un-necessary as the standard material is difficult to tear. I think everybody thinks of abrsaion and tears due to that – but, if it can last 3000 to 5000 miles – seems like a good choice. Why buy 0.75? That was the reasoning!

.75 oz/sqyd Dyneema® Composite Fabric

Available in Burnt Orange, Dirt, and Spruce Green

This canopy material has a higher Dyneema® thread count which gives it a higher tear strength. The standard material is already difficult to tear, so this weight is unnecessary. Many thru-hikers like this feature for added peace of mind.  It is also a bit thicker and darker than the standard weight. It is less transparent and offers more privacy.

The trouble is that 0.75 DCF adds nothing in terms of puncture resistance, because the mylar layers are exactly the same as the 0.55 DCF. The only difference is the number of threads, which adds to tear resistance. Difficult to say if that would have been a difference maker here.

> Wow, such a big weight penalty to have a tent that’s much stronger and will last considerably longer than paper thin .55 oz Dyneema.

It our testing we just did not find that to be the case.  The weakness of DCF fabric is ultimately the mylar layers and 0.75 DCF isn’t any different than 0.55 DCF that way.  Lifespan is a little longer but not what it might look/feel like on paper and certainly nowhere near proportional to the weight increase. I will say that the 1-ounce DCF is tougher due to 2x the mylar but even it is subject to wear and puncturing and has a noticeable bulk increase. There’s no perfect fabric and it’s all tradeoff one way or the other.

-H

It will be interesting to know what folks like Ron at MLD and Henry S at Tarptent use for their shelters when they go out….silynylon or DCF?:-)

“Hail storms don’t start in the middle of the night in the Sierra. It’s an afternoon event.”

True.  But sometimes they start after a heavy rain that one might reasonably want to retreat into a tent to escape.  The 2 hour downpour I sat through (though it did not seem to involve hail) was the heaviest I’ve been in up there, late afternoon through early evening (it didn’t stop after 2 hours, just stopped pounding); I think it would have gotten through any rain gear I’ve ever owned in about 5 minutes max.

I’m not aware of any way to predict when hail might be part of the afternoon thunderstorm once you’re in the back country.

I see that MLD has completely done away with offering shelters made with the lighter .5 to .67 DCF’s and is now only making them in .8.

“we feel that now is the time in lightweight shelter evolution to shift emphasis away from the only (very) slightly lighter DCF versions to the longer serving life of more ecologically sustainable .8 All Season.”

“we specialize in All Season Shelters and no longer offer DCF shelters in the ever so slightly lighter and more fragile .5 and .67 DCF. The .8 DCF is 2X stronger and offers 3X service life.”

There’s MLD and then there’s everything else.

Ron/MLD did clarify over on reddit a few months ago that their 3x service life claim was moreso referring to really big pyramid shelters and the difference is smaller in regular sized tents.

“We say that .8 DCF can be 2-3 times can be more durable/stronger/longer lasting than .5. In a small tarp it is less of a difference 1.5 X and in a large Mid 3X….”

So the various companies in this thread are not that far apart here. I think any lifespan difference is more like 10-20% in a typical tent if it’s constructed properly, Tarptent appears to roughly agree, while MLD says it can be less than 1.5x. I think these differences are largely unrealized because 0.5oz will last a very long time when properly constructed. For example, Tarptent has been doing a nice job with DCF for maybe 5 years now. Has anyone seen one of their shelters wear out? Probably there is a report or two somewhere but I’ve never seen one because they design it to avoid deformation.

With a big shelter (e.g. 4P) there are larger panels and thus more potential for deformation/delamination in a large mid, so I can see how heavier material helps there although the core weaknesses of the material (they mylar) are the same and I think I construction methods are the main factor (e.g. reinforcing the bias).

~~ too bad no one an eVent bivy ~~   ;-)

On a trip to the Uintas, there was a news broadcast that a Boy Scout was killed by lightning when camping next to a tree.  Not the best place to be in a thunder storm.

“And the lightest 20d silnylons and silpolys weigh 1.2 oz and up.”  Monte, I have some 20D silpoly in a tarp from Yama Mtn Gear that weighs in at 1.08 oz/sq/yd.  Too bad that their tarps have been sold out for some time.  And while there have been issues with the strength and durability of silpoly under 20 denier, the weight of the threads is not the sole measure of quality. A lighter thread, while more expensive, can be just as strong and durable.  It is a crapshoot, though.  Few of us have access to the kind of fabric measuring equipment used by industry.

Had regrets about my post rejecting DCF.  But after reading the latest posts since, it is apparent that what has often been said about social media is true; folks will glom onto what they want to believe and tailor the facts to fit it.  So the light hearted comments here are welcome, and am glad about having stuck my stake into the mud and pounded it into solid ground.