Crowdsourcing: New Member Introduction Thread

[Matthew / BPL]

We have discussed the sticky-thread idea initially but mega-threads slow our software down. We could, theoretically, do a sticky thread and then change it out when it gets to page 10 or whatever.

I appreciate all of the thoughtful responses to this thread. We have heard a lot of different positions regarding this initiative. I’m not sure how we will finally implement this but I’m going to repeat a question that I asked in my initial post:

What information do you think a new BPL member should be encouraged to share?

I understand that many of you do not agree with the base idea we are thinking of implementing or do not see the value in it. That’s fine but I’d still like to hear more ideas about questions.

Absent that, I think new users will be encouraged to participate in a thread/forum (name TBD) and share something like:

1. Approximately where do you live and hike?
2. Share a little about a favorite trip or hike.
3. Is there a trip/hike you are currently preparing for?
4. Is there a particular question or issue you want guidance with right now?
5. Something goofy about burritos or mangoes or whatever.

My/our hope is that new people would be welcomed into the fold here by experienced, well-meaning members who might help the new folks find that awesome thread about stuffing food in bear cans, mosquito-mitigation strategies, or share a story about how they like hiking in ______ NP too.

[Dan]

When I meet a backpacker, I’m interested to hear about their background and history with backpacking, but I’m also interested in what type of activities and trips they enjoy. Do they like to explore off-trail?  Fish?  Cover miles on a long trail?

[Matthew / BPL]

Those are good questions! Thank you.

[Monte Masterson]

The main question BPL should ask a new member is:

“How were you introduced to backpacking?”

It’s very important and usually brings back fond memories of childhood or early adulthood. And what becomes apparent when you get the replies is that most backpackers had at least one person or more who took them out on day hikes and/or backpack trips earlier in their lives. Someone doesn’t usually all of a sudden say “hey, backpacking might be a good activity to take up.” It can happen but not very often.

And the main reason people of color are way underrepresented out on the trail is that they simply aren’t introduced to backpacking. I know some will argue that it (especially ultralight) has become “gentrified” and is economically out of reach for lower income people, however I say it has way more to do with what you’re exposed to at a young age. I mean at less than the price of an I phone you can get fully equipped with at least lightweight backpacking gear. Actually gas to and from the trailhead ends up being the biggest expense.

I posed the question on a thread awhile back and it got good replies right off, but then it fizzled just when it seemed as if it was getting legs. https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/how-were-you-introduced-to-backpacking/

[moggie]

I don’t think you should ask people where they live, especially not as the first thing you say to them. There’s a certain degree of risk in putting your physical location out on a public forum.

I still remember being new here. I learned a lot of valuable and interesting things by browsing around and reading, but felt like some of the response to my attempts at interaction bordered on hostility.

I stopped posting because of it, and didn’t have a membership for a few years.

As an aside, I actually did just take up backpacking on a whim at 52, with no prior exposure to it.

 

[Todd T]

How about replacing questions 1 through 4 with “Tell us a little about yourself.”  No pressure, no time commitment unless so desired.

[Matthew / BPL]

These are all very valid responses. Thank you! I’m quite grateful.

Monte’s question is a really good one and my origin story doesn’t have anything to do with my youth either!

[Ratatosk]

At the risk of mission drift, I think it’s important to note that the biggest expense of backpacking isn’t the gear (which, by any rubrik, is indeed really f’ing expensive) or gas to the trailhead, it’s the opportunity cost of time on the trail. Checking out of your job for four or five months and still having your rent paid, and your bills taken care of is an incredible luxury – people living paycheck-to-paycheck, whatever their color, simply can’t do that. Large chunks of my life have been exhausting enough that the thought of gearing up and getting out for even a day or two was overwhelming, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

I’ll second Moggie’s observation that responses to forum participation can be snobby, caustic, and rude (regardless of whether or not they’re factually accurate). I’m comfortable enough in my own skin and outdoor experience that I can shrug it off, but not everyone is like that. Even in my short time here I’ve seen people contribute an anecdote, or ask a question, only to have a regular immediately reply with “you did that wrong” or some variation.

It’s worth noting that on BPL, actual backpacking seems to take second place to what things weigh. I myself am already reverting to lurking, because so much of the focus is on what people carry, rather than where they carry it. Why interact with that, when you can lurk, learn what you need, and keep out of the crosshairs of people who think they do it better than you?

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Thank you for your observation and candor!  There is always room for improvement.

[Dan]

“felt like some of the response to my attempts at interaction bordered on hostility”

“responses to forum participation can be snobby, caustic, and rude”

Absolutely. I have noted this exact culture several times, only to be shot down by the regulars telling me that I’m wrong. There is fantastic information to be found on the forums, and it represents 99% of BPL’s value, IMO. However, many of the regulars adopt a know-it-all and competitive attitude with each other and towards newcomers that discourages participation.  It feels clubby and and toxic, and definitely not inclusive.

Sometimes it’s almost comical, where the discussion is about something that is clearly a matter of personal preference, yet virtually every response is saying how their way is the right way, and other ways are wrong. Sil-poly vs. sil-nylon vs. DCF. Boots vs trail-runners. Single-wall vs double-wall. Inflatable vs foam. Frameless vs. frame. Tarp vs. bivy vs. tent. Alcohol vs canister. And raingear … don’t get me started. There’s obviously more than one solution for different people and different activities, but somehow everyone has identified the best and only way.

It’s almost as if people are clueless about how they are expressing themselves, or maybe this forum has just self-selected a group that likes to talk down to others. I’m a member of several other online communities associated with other interests and activities, and none of them has this culture. Just express your own opinion and explain your reasons, there’s no need to denigrate the opinions of others, or tell them how cold, wet, or uncomfortable they’re going to be.

IMO, it’s great to get newcomers engaged, but they won’t stay engaged unless this culture changes.

[Matthew / BPL]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Ratatosk & Dan. I heartily agree. I’ve never counted but I type a lot of posts that I delete before posting. Or I have second thoughts after right after posting that that I edit out.

I don’t share trip reports for a couple of reasons. One reason is that circumstances in my life have prevented me from taking many trips over the last several years. Another is that I have had an unlucky string of “failed” trips. Finally, I often feel my trips might not be long or “cool” enough to share. It’s easier to not share my failures widely.

Jon, thank you for your encouraging response.

[Dan]

I am resolving to post some trip reports this year. They won’t be epic trips, but it’s probably good to have a mix anyway. I’ve been reluctant to share too much detail about my favorite spots on a publicly searchable forum, but maybe I can just post photos and description and be vague about specific locations, while offering to share details by PM. That worked in a recent thread, where I offered to give specific suggestions to someone looking for a destination in Colorado, and he immediately contacted me privately. The slow/clunky one-by-one upload of images has been a bit of a barrier to me, but perhaps it will get easier with practice.

[Monte Masterson]

I can appreciate the opinions regarding the snarkiness sometimes on display here at BPL, but I’d like to also play devil’s advocate.

Remember the website is entitled backpacking light.com. It’s inherently going to be gear oriented, which in turn is going to invite techno nerds who are staunch proponents of cutting-edge UL gear. Sure, some posters can be contentious throughout the discourse and I’ve been guilty of it myself, but even though the banter might seem anal at times, it’s more just a collective of engineer types who are trying to get to the truth. Of course posters may have strong opinions on things. The real question is whether or not someone is launching a personal attack against another member. Otherwise if things get a little heated on a gear topic no big deal. To me backpackinglight.com’s main mission should be about getting those heavy, torturous pack weights down to where the trip is enjoyable and not a brutal slog that turns into a chore. I could be wrong though. If you’re on a thread you don’t like simply click onto another one.

Also keep in mind that ultralight backpackers can often have a pompous a-hole aura, at least considerably more than the traditional backpacking masses. Sorry, it’s true. It’s kind of like the ones you see out on the trail who say “well you need this, this and this.” Or they might have the attitude of “because you’re not doing what I’m doing, you’re clearly stupid”.  Of course not all ultralight backpackers are like that. However, there is some truth to it and you might see a bit of it on display here at BPL. Maybe not pleasant yet not surprising considering this is the place where many of said type dwell.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Ultralight backpacking is an interesting and at times polarizing subject matter. It is one of the few topics that can generate a counterculture. Have you ever read Ultralight jerks on Reddit? There are times where they are spot on in their comments. It can be a humbling read.

Like any source, you need to judge the point of view and see how it aligns with your perspective. Then pick and choose which topics that you think add value. I tend not to read articles on DCF tents because that is way outside my budget. I do read articles on water treatment. I don’t read articles on Trail Runner. I do read articles on managing clothing in the rain and cold weather. As you read more articles, you get use to the names of the contributors and that will also help understand their perspective which you may or may not agree with. My 2 cents.

[William Chilton]

I enjoy reading trip reports and wish there were more of them. However, I gave up posting my own reports, mainly because the forum software made it such hard work.

I do still post reports on a UK-based forum, where I can write the report offline, add the photos as BBCode and then just copy and paste it into the post.

[Bruce Tolley]

I am wondering whether “onboarding new members” is a solution in search of a problem.

I just reviewed the articles posted on the splash page. IMO most of them are not written for a newbie audience.

Is the problem the lack of new members, hence the idea to onboard them more effectively?

Perhaps publish some introductory content OUTSIDE the paywall.  When I find newbies I often send them to articles on such sites as Adventure Alan, Skurka’s site, or loan them my copy of the BackpackingLight book edited by Ryan Jordan.

And yes, less snarkiness is always a good thing.

[Matthew / BPL]

This is a little bit of thread-drift but I think it is relevant to the greater conversation. Monte speculated about BPL’s mission statement above. I can share some of the values that define Backpacking Light:

Our Core Belief
We believe that spending time outside (and connecting with nature) makes humans better.

Our Purpose
We help people thrive outdoors.

Our Theme
We help people thrive outdoors because we believe connectedness to nature makes humans better.

Lightweight gear is part of how BPL seeks to help people thrive outdoors, along with technique, trip planning and more. The larger goal is to help make better humans.

[W I S N E R !]

When I find newbies I often send them to articles on such sites as Adventure Alan, Skurka’s site…

Exactly. Putting it bluntly, this site and the forums are becoming less and less relevant to me. I live in Los Angeles, I know what a diverse outdoor community looks like; this is not it. As an educator I often introduce students to the outdoors/outdoor sites simply because they are a strong influence on me and come up in our conversations a lot…for the aforementioned reasons, I do not tell young people I teach to check out BPL. It also seems to increasingly miss the mark with the demographic I do most of my outdoor activities with (none of the people I meet seem to know about this site). Aside from this, the paywall makes it a non-starter for most new people anyhow.

Nothing against older white guys (I am 46 and come from a long line of old white guys!), but that is palpably who is running the show here. While certainly a niche that works for many, it’s not very in-sync with the culture I live in.

my apologies if I’m drifting here… I have no idea what the demographics of BPLs new members are. But if there is a problem with forum engagement it could quite possibly be because this place is not very diverse.I can think of numerous people I know that would probably not be comfortable posting here. Not because they wouldn’t be welcomed if they did, but because this place has very few people like them. Sort of like walking into a bar in a town where you’re a stranger… Or perhaps peering through that bar’s windows and not seeing a single person like yourself…

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Speaking of Demographics, I just pulled up some of my YouTube data.  BTW, I also live just north of Los Angeles and these numbers do not reflect the diversity of my area either.  Who visits my YouTube Channel?  Older Males who live in the United States.  Just data here.

Thanks Monte for pointing out the labelling issue on the second chart!

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Lightweight gear is part of how BPL seeks to help people thrive outdoors, along with technique, trip planning and more. The larger goal is to help make better humans.

 

Aside from this, the paywall makes it a non-starter for most new people anyhow.

If your objective is to meet your core values with a lager audience, then W I S N E R is spot on with his comment about the paywall.  My 2 cents.

[bradmacmt]

Have you ever read Ultralight jerks on Reddit? There are times where they are spot on in their comments. It can be a humbling read.

That’s a hilarious site! Had never seen it, and just spent an hour laughing. Thanks!

[David Sugeno]

Hi David. I guess I’m not clear on the lesson you’ve learned at Backpackers Basecamp as it relates to new members. The site rarely adds any, and to me it’s at least partly clear why.

I think there are numerous reasons for this.  But you will recall that in the past, new posters would regularly check in, and the old-timers would all have the opportunity to welcome the newcomer.  Here is an example of what that can look like: https://bpbasecamp.freeforums.net/thread/879/introduce 

Approximately where do you live and hike?
Share a little about a favorite trip or hike.
Is there a trip/hike you are currently preparing for?
Is there a particular question or issue you want guidance with right now?
Something goofy about burritos or mangoes or whatever.

I think this is quite good, personally.  A request for a bit of basic information in an unthreatening way.

[bradmacmt]

David, despite your explanations, the site rarely if ever adds new members. WHY do you think that is?

 

[Hopearotie]

Hello all,

I’m new (have been part of this site less than a year) and I was pretty damn scared to post on forms. Great information on here but some people are JERKS. I’m a  middle of the road backpacker. I’m not ultra experienced or ultralight…I know my way around the backcountry and I’m looking to gain knowledge and skills. I get out when I can and learn as a go. What makes backpacking so fun is there is always a new situation and a new learning opportunity. I will say this is not the best learning environment…you will quickly find out that there ARE stupid questions lol. I would say coming from the newbie perspective it would be nice to have a newbie form. That way I can ask my “stupid questions” and get responses from those that are willing to answer newbie questions or those that I’m more on the same skill level. Let’s get real, if I’m on a JV high school basketball team it’s hard to take advice from LeBron James. First off we don’t talk the same language lol and second it’s so far above my level it’s not applicable to me, my situation and/or skills. I can learn from those closer to my level though. I think making a form dedicated to newbies would be more inviting and a better way to allow some JV players a chance to get their feet wet.

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

 I will say this is not the best learning environment…you will quickly find out that there ARE stupid questions lol. I would say coming from the newbie perspective it would be nice to have a newbie form. That way I can ask my “stupid questions” and get responses from those that are willing to answer newbie questions or those that I’m more on the same skill level.

Sounds like an excellent idea!  Matthew? Ryan?

[Author]

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