Crew contract information request

[Jeffrey Peters]

My troop will be sending two crews to Philmont in 2017. I has been asked to look into creating a contract that each participant would sign that spells out what our participation  expectations are in mandatory  shakedown trips. I was wondering if any other troop does something like this and if you are willing to send me a copy.

[Aubrey W. Bogard]

PM sent.

[ed dzierzak]

PM sent.

Ok…. Why did this work and not the message with links?

[Chuck C.]

I’m in the exact same boat. I just finalized our crew yesterday and started thinking that a crew contract would be very valuable.  I was happy to see someone else asked this question. Our Troop has been around for over a decade and this is our first trip to Philmont, so everyone is very green.  I’d be interested in learning about what has worked for others regarding a contract.

 

 

[Jeffrey Peters]

Thanks for the help. I took several that I found or were sent and modified them into something that worked for us. Our first crew meeting went well and the scouts asked many good questions. Next week is a deadline for our first big payment so we will see how many are left after that.

[KEVIN W]

#topicresurrection

 

Wondering how this has worked for your Troops (good an bad feedback) and if you have any contract examples you would be willing to share.

[Jeffrey Peters]

Well, it’s a double edge sword but it served it purpose. We started our planning for Philmont the September before the trip. Several of the advisers on the trip believed that we would have a couple scouts not participate in the shakedowns  unless we created a contract. We planned on offering five day hikes and five weekend trips.  We set the line at you had to attend 3 of each.  The contract basically said that the scouts behavior needed to be with in the scout oath and law and that they had to be willful participants. At  the first crew meeting we gave out the contract and the hike dates. We planned to do the day hikes during the winter months and in spring start the weekend trips.  For each day hike we asked the scouts to pack the bag like they would for the trip and follow the Philmont packing list. We also asked that they add weight to make the pack weigh thirty pounds.   Most of the scouts attended more than the minimum and were well prepared for Philmont.  After every trip I sent out a spreadsheet with the attendance record on it so each scout knew what   was up.   There where only several problems. One of the older scouts showed up to his three day hikes with his pack fill with textbooks and not gear .  He missed the first two weekend trips but he struggled with equipment issues for each of this weekend trips.  We had another scout who needed to attend the last weekend trip. He failed to sign up. I sent out the spread sheet showing who the scouts where that needed to attend the trip and still got no reply from him.  I then sent him and his parents an email saying that he needed to attend this trip or he would not be going to Philmont.  His response was that he had signed up to run in a relay race with some friends and asked if he could do the hike on his own time some latter date. Unfortunately this was not a young man I could trust to keep his word.   My response to him was simply for him to help me understand why it was more important to run this race than honor the commitment he made to the crew.  I actually then thought of reasons that would allow me to let him do what he wanted.  He decided to do the trip.  Another down side is I had to plan and go on five day hikes and five weekend trips.  The next year we went to MOHAB and because of the makeup of the crew us advisers felt we did not need a contract.

[KEVIN W]

Thanks for sharing your experience!  I like how you got the one Scout to affirm his commitment to the Crew.  Sounds like having a contract helped you drive that home.

When we prepped for our first Philmont trip in 2018 (ended up hiking in Colorado for two weeks due to Philmont being closed) we had a crew of 16-17 year old Scouts also in ROTC that were in great shape, well disciplined and experienced in hiking and backpacking.  We did have an issue where after we signed up and Adult and his son dropped out and eventually left the Troop and we did not recover all their costs.

For 2020, it looks like we will have much younger Scouts (14-16 year olds) and I want to be very clear on the expectations as well as their financial commitment.  In 2018 we also had Scouts with sport, work, etc not attend the Prep hikes and I want the Parents and Scouts to understand this is an additional time commitment that needs to take precedence in most cases.  This is why I think a contract will help ground everyone on the same page.

[David Y]

Our troop conducts 4, and require everyone to attend at least 3, Philmont shakedown / training trips of 2 nights and at least 15 miles each starting in the fall the year before we go.

We do a pack shakedown like Philmont Rangers before every trip to ensure everyone has their essential gear and to eliminate redundant and unnecessary items. We require everyone to train with the same gear they plan to take to Philmont, This allows them to test their gear and decide what works and what is too heavy.

And we practice Philmont’s techniques, dining fly set-up, bear begging, one-pot cooking, etc. and use Philmont meals or similar super market foods.

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

I’ve always had more problems with the over-achievers. They (or their parents) can’t stop the world of traveling teams, AP classes, and piano recitals to train for Philmont. People think they should just put the $2000.00 down and show up. It doesn’t work that way. They get to Philmont and the simplest things like cooking and getting up early are a huge deal. It can ruin it for everybody, including themselves.

I make it mandatory for just 4 hikes. Two hikes are just overnighters, the third hike is over 14 miles in a day and the last is tough hike over 6000 feet with a climb of 3500′ in five miles. Been doing that for 20 years now. But there’s always that one guy who has something he HAS to do.  I let the crew decide his (or her) fate.

 

 

[Jeffrey Peters]

Letting the crew decide his fate could be an interesting dynamic. I had a Prof. in college who’s late for class policy did that. He would lock the door at the start of class. If a person showed up late,  the class would vote to let him in or not. So the first time we let the guy in . The second time he stayed locked out.

[M B]

Ime, adults were the bigger problem, not finding time to excercise or lose weight. Frequently having “checkbook problems” when boy needs gear.

 

Make sure parents understand commitment, cost, and deadlines to aquire needed gear.

 

We had surprise changes at last minute. Kid had fine pack in shakedowns, then show up for philmont with huge imitation alice military pack with extra hanging compartment….that fit horribly. Parent decided he needed bigger pack at last minute. Hello amazon.

“Affluent” area, private school kids.

But parents resisted spend money to outfit them right

[David Y]

We had similar incident a few years back. Dad and son going. Son had been before and was in college out of town so we gave him a pass on not going on shakedown trips. Dad goes on every trip with nice quality tent and gear. We get to Philmont and now son is using that tent with a buddy and dad is solo in a $10 K-mart kids’ sleep-over tent that wasn’t big enough for him to stretch-out or waterproof. It rains the third night and he is at our tent soaking wet and asking to get in our 2-man. We sent him to the staff cabin to sleep on the porch. At our next commissary they issued him a Phil-tent.

[Brad P]

Our scouts don’t have good backpacking tents.  We purchased some REI Half Dome 2 person tents to simulate the weight of the Phil-tents. The scouts will use Phil-tents at Philmont, but I told them they are welcome to purchase lighter tents, but before doing so, run it by me so I can make sure they make a good choice.

I plan on taking my Duplex.

[David Y]

I’ve seen a lot of REI Half and Quarter Dome tents at Philmont, some of our crew members have them. I’m not sure Philmont’s MSR Thunder Ridge tent is that much better. It is made a little tougher (heavier) to last all summer long with careless Scouts.

I feel it is better to use gear you have trained with and are accustomed to.  Of course, if you have been training with your tents and feel they are frail or lame Philmont’s tents are there for you. And if something fails on your or theirs you can get a Philmont tent replacement at most backcountry commissaries, or at least we did.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.”

[Brad P]

These freestanding tents, REI or the MSRs, aren’t difficult to pitch, so I think they will do fine with the Philtents.

As you mentioned, if a Philtent has a failure (phailure?), they’ll replace it. It also simplifies packing to fly to and from Philmont. I know the crew has to clean the tents at the end, but if they bring their own and the tents are wet, I’d rather not deal with packing them for travel that way.

None of this is huge, but enough to say go with Philtents. As I said, I have no objection to a crew member bringing his own tent. I just want to go over what the crew member is bringing to make sure it’s a good option and meets Philmont’s requirements.  None of our scouts currently have tents that would be a better option than Philtents. I don’t think any of them are 2 person tents.

I’m toying with getting my son a Duomid with an innernet if MLD has a Black Friday sale. It would partially be for me to try out as well. In the end, if we do more backpacking, he could keep it. Otherwise, it would be a rental as I’d sell it or my Duplex and only be out the depreciation cost. I could also let him use the Duplex.

Our troop has mostly done car camping. I’m encouraging more backpacking.  :)

[Kevin Sweere]

Setting expectations for any big trip at the start is very good.

The problem with anything “mandatory” is are you really going to enforce the ~only consequence …. to kick the Scout or adult off the crew?  Keep their money or increase the rate slightly on everyone else?   Lose that family in your Troop and perhaps in Scouting?

While more training is always better for the short trip, there is usually a much longer time afterward you have to live with others.

In our Troop, we let it be known that Philmont / SeaBase / NorthernTier has strict standards, all money paid is at risk of loss if you drop or don’t meet those standards, we’ll try to refund as much as possible without increasing costs on others, and if someone else signs up and pays that frees up $$ to be refunded.  For big Troop-only trips, like the annual August 50-mile kayak trip, we filter at sign-up a few months prior.

By setting expectations, I mean we record giving each participant a printed hardcopy of the Guidebook to Adventure (or equivalent), show that camp’s own videos on preparing for the trip at the Kickoff Meeting, and hand out a tentative training schedule.  Oh, and remind all of the above money matters.

In practice, this has lead to others planning ahead…. like the family who is attending a national competition and is preparing to organize their own Philmont shakedown trip, open to others of course….. or like boys taking our intro-to-backpacking trip the prior Fall (or Spring) and the Kayaking Merit Badge at summer camp so they pass muster for the kayak trip.

Lastly, I’m quite envious of how well David’s community prepares for Philmont.  Just not the shakedowns described above but all their classes too.

 

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