Considering “forcing” myself to go single wall DCF tent. Condensation Question

[Joey G]

I would like to try bigger miles in the coming years and am considering a lighter tent. Having anxiety about condensation is what’s held me back.

Edit – I’m a fair-weather backpacker by the way. I don’t winter camp yet and would be fine using a different tent for winter if I do. If I know it’s going to be too cold for me and rain, I would probably pivot.

1. I’m trying to understand if single wall tents actually have more condensation on the inside. Is this true? I’m curious how this happens. It’s not like there’s more moisture being created. Only thing I can think of is maybe there’s a micro-climate between an inner and outer.

2. I have a Feathered Friends Flicker. Its fabric is Pertex® Quantum Pro® water-resistant/breathable fabric. Would this fabric actually keep the feathers from getting wet if condensation does get on the sleeping bag?

3. Is avoiding condensation mostly a comfort thing or is there a situation where it can ruin a trip?

[James R]

1) mostly no. What matters is ventilation. If anything a dual wall tent tends to be designed with more ventilation and protection from moisture at a cost of weight.

a single wall shelter with uncovered ground beneath can tend to gain vastly more interior moisture from the ground or soil evaporating inside the tent.  This can be a huge effect

 

that’s why it can be very helpful to use a ground sheet that covers vestibules of double wall tents  and to have a ground cover under floor less single wall shelters

2)I have several FF bags and live near Seattle. FF generally is responsive and helpful. why don’t you just call FF and ask them about the water resistance of that fabric?  Nonetheless  In “real life” if a shelter is soaked with condensation on the walls and the humidity is near 100% then the down will degrade in its insulation capacity as it begins to collapse from atmospheric moisture even if there is no direct dripping.   having used a flourless tipi shelter in snow in temps hovering near freezing and more snow falling and no full cover floor I can tell you it was like a rain forest inside and everything was rapidly getting damp.  And you couldn’t avoid bumping the walls and then taking a shower.  I’ve avoided that like the plague ever since.
To manage moisture accumulation inside a down bag I now prefer highly breathable down sleeping bags/quilts and carry a very light water resistant bivy if I think I may want more protection from splash, spray, drips, or wind.
a two layer tent with a water resistant “inner” (like a Hilleberg”) does a great job of keeping drips off the user and keeping the body and gear from touching the wet fly sheet.  Many of those kinds of designs can also incorporate better ventilation. But all that protection and comfort comes at a weight cost for more fabric and or poles and stakes. FF also carries Hilleberg tents. Ask them.

1. if you can’t retreat it can kill you under the “wrong” circumstances. If it’s only a few days and or you can’t retreat it’s mostly comfort including being cold in your sleeping bag as its insulation qualities decline from absorbing atmospheric moisture and or drips. Some mitigating strategies include the water resistant bivy and / or a light weight synthetic over quilt.  If I think I need all that extra stuff I’m either using a tarp in wet weather or have pack animals (llamas) or I’ll just bring a heavier two wall shelter with good ventilation and substantially reduce my risk of moisture issues.

   sorry this app is not allowing seamless editing so I’m not going to worry about the typos.

 

[Jerry Adams]

one thing is the outer layer can be cooled by IR radiation to the night sky, especially if it’s clear and you’re not under trees.  Then, the inside and outside surface of that outer layer will get more condensation.  If you have a second layer inside, it won’t have as much condensation on it because it’s not cooled by IR.

another thing is you can feel when you’re touching the inside layer and you’ll stop before touching the condensation layer

I think this is more of a comfort thing.  I have a single layer tent and there’s often condensation.  I just avoid touching it too much.  And my tent is a little larger to minimize this.  I also make the tent larger to make it so I can sit inside if it’s raining, and cook dinner,…

DCF is supposed not to absorb IR.  So, it would be less likely to have condensation on it.  But that means that you, inside, will lose heat to radiative heat loss and be cooler than if you had a nylon or polyester tent.  Theoretically – I have not used a DCF shelter.

My sleeping bag is M50.  It routinely gets water on it and the down inside stays dry.  I cowboy camp a lot and the outside gets quite wet from dew and frost.  The only time the down got wet was when it rained – the rain drops hit the fabric with force and are more likely to penetrate.

I think your pertex quantum pro would also protect your down.  You could set out your sleeping bag at home.  Put a puddle of water on it 1/8 or 1/16 thick.  Let it sit over night.  If the puddle is still there the next morning you should be protected from condensation.  I’ve seen some nylon fabric that lets through the puddle pretty quickly.  Other nylon fabric held the puddle for a couple hours, then all of a sudden it found a way through and quickly drained (into my down).

[Joey G]

Thanks for the detailed response James. I should add in my main post that I don’t really do Winter camping. I really dislike it being too cold.

[Dan]

This might depend on the conditions that you typically encounter. But unless you are dealing with day after day of constant rain, I think that people sometimes make too much out of condensation.

I adverse conditions, it can be virtually impossible to completely avoid condensation in any 3-season tent. You might experience more in some single-wall tents, but in my experience it can be mitigated by site selection and enhancing ventilation by the tent pitch and leaving a vestibule open. If there is some condensation, a well designed tent directs most of it out the bottom safely. Your DWR quilt coating will slow down any moisture that gets on your quilt, and even if some small part of your quilt gets slightly damp, it will dry out quickly enough, just hang it up at a lunch break.

I had the same fears many years ago, but eventually took the leap, and I would not consider carrying the extra weight of a separate fly for my 3-season backpacking.

[Joey G]

Thanks  Jerry.
Also,  ” If you have a second layer inside, it won’t have as much condensation on it because it’s not cooled by IR.” So the outer layer should still have, theoretically, the same amout of condensation because of IR regardless of single or double wall?

Thanks Dan.

[Jerry Adams]

Maybe there will be less condensation on the inside surface of the outer layer because the inner layer reduces the water vapor from your breath getting to the inside surface of the outer layer.

Maybe all this theory is unimportant.  Like Dan said, I used to have a 2 layer tent but now have a single layer and will never go back.

[Todd T]

Condensation happens if conditions are right.  The difference between single-wall and double-wall is very small if we’re just measuring the amount of condensed water, but can be huge in practical terms.

A double-wall tent (mostly) prevents you or your sleeping bag from touching the condensation–a win.  But a double-wall also prevents you from easily wiping the condensation off with your camp towel–a fail.

The touch problem is magnified the taller you are.  My rule (I’m 6’5″) is that a single-wall tent needs to be a fair bit longer and taller to give me a safety factor as I move around in my sleep or change shirts or whatever.

The conditions that result in condensation are primarily due to ambient temperature and humidity, but are also affected by ventilation, the location/path of your exhaled breath, and–most of all–visibility of your tent to a clear night sky.  Fly material and color can make a small difference in the night sky radiative effect; some people swear that DCF has lower thermal emissivity and hence less condensation.

I find that silnylon is harder to dry off than DCF, whether by wiping with a towel or shaking the tent.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

One thing that really helps is having your singlewall shelter be a nice size. I thought singlewall tents were pretty terrible when I was in the PNW and using a tiny one that was very hard to stay away from the walls, but as I hiked in more places I found the condensation was a lot more manageable in those environments and with a tent with room to more easily stay away from the walls.

Generally a singlewall tent doesn’t get more condensation – it’s not creating any moisture and in both styles the fly is pretty much exactly at ambient temperature. A smaller tent will get more condensation as the moisture is dispersed as much. Mostly a singlewall tent just changes how it is managed, since you stay away from the walls and/or wipe it down if it happens, instead of having a barrier.

I still think a doublewall can be worth the weight in a lot of circumstances because it’s often only ~2oz more for that protection, but in most areas both types can work well.

[Joey G]

Thanks Todd and Dan D.

[Brad W]

For me, who barely fits in my single wall DCF tents and one double wall DCF tent, having the extra layer is great in the winter and or when cold wind is coming through.  In fair weather, I don’t find the extra inner much help. At my height and with my kit, I often touch the ends/sides and a little bit of moisture on my bag has not ruined any trip. As you mentioned, most bags have some DWR coating.  When condensation is really bad-a few heavy storms in PNW, wiping the interior a few times a night and putting my wind shell over my feet were very helpful.

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I am of the  “Double Wall Persuasion”. Tarptent’s newer offerings have VERY light “solid” inner tent fabric that is dust & spin drift proof but yet weighs less per sq. yard/meter than the netting it also uses in the tent’s upper ventilation panels.

I point this out B/C my TT NOTCH Li (DCF) tent has these very light solid panels plus mesh vent panels higher up. I feel the advantages of a very light double wall like this more than makes up the slight lighter weight of a single wall tent. A few extra ounces means less chance to get myself and my belongings wet from condensation and, where needed, makes for a a bit warmer tent when venting is properly managed.

[AK Granola]

I love my Tarptent Notch Li. Crazy expensive, but so awesome both weight wise and for staying dry, from moisture inside or out. No need to force yourself to mess with condensation, if you can afford it. I love that I can shake it after a rainstorm, and it’s mostly dry. With a noon sunny break it’s completely dry in about 15 minutes.

I’ve been using mine since 2020 and i have the “solid.” I have – I think? – about 77 nights in it so far, maybe a handful more that I’ve forgotten about. Still in great shape. Easy to pitch and pack.

I also more recently bought a Marmot Tungsten UL1, and although it’s another pound to carry, it’s also double wall and serves my purpose of a smaller footprint for busier trails/campsites. Again, no condensation.

[Todd T]

I love my Tarptent Notch Li.

My Notch (silnylon) ventilates better than any tent I’ve had.  I think it’s mainly the large open ends that do such a good job (they can be closed for severe weather, but I’ve never encountered weather bad enough that I had to close them).  Shaking water off silnylon is not so easy.

[JAshley73]

Regarding your Marmot Tungsten UL 1p – Is this the brand new, 2026 version, or an older version? I’m interested to hear your thoughts about it.

 

(The 2026 2p is very interesting to me.)

[AK Granola]

I purchased the Tungsten in October 2023, and it was on a steep sale, so I think they might have changed it since. I have at least 15 nights in it so far, maybe 20. I’ve used it in strong wind, some rain, and in Grand Canyon high heat. I like the very small footprint, and I also liked using just the mesh in Grand Canyon, no fly. I was worried about the steep side walls and how it would do in wind, but I’ve had it in pretty windy conditions without any problem. Not outrageously windy, but definitely gusty. Super easy to pitch, and unlike the Notch, you can pitch and then move it around if the first spot you picked isn’t the best. I also love being able to shake the dirt out! Also can’t do that with the Notch.

If I knew I was heading into super stormy weather, I’d probably opt for the Notch, but that’s just because my experience with it has been superb, even with hail, crazy strong wind, and torrential downpours. I haven’t given the Marmot that kind of test yet!

[Terran]

Innerspace/ footprint the single wall wins. The newer designs are using a hybrid approach.

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

I’m late to this party but my take is that condensation happens in ALL tents in the right/wrong conditions, regardless of material or single/double wall construction, because it’s all about water vapor condensing on cold surfaces.  There are certainly ways to mitigate it and the idea is to reduce water vapor and/or keep the fabric warmer.  It’s worth watching the  Choosing a Better Campsite video if you haven’t seen it.

[Link .]

. Condensation in Single-walled Shelters: Contributing Factors and Tips for Reduction . An old(2007)BPL Article

[David D]

UL tents have short bathtub walls in an effort to save weight.  The fly needs to be pinned to the ground to avoid splashback.  This is escalates condensation formation

My old mec spark 2 has a higher bathtub but not so high that it impedes views with the door open.  The fly edge sits much higher off the ground than with my Xmids and this significantly reduces condensation vs the Xmids.   If I’m not carrying the tent on my back (like when kayak back country camping) I almost always bring the mec for it’s better condensation avoidance

The Xmid with side walls higher then standard but not nearly as high as the solid would hit a sweet spot in my opinion

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Henry Shires mentions ways to mitigate condensation. One of the ways almost all of his designs mitigate condensation is the low-to-high ventilation path. Tarptents’ lower vents are important because they “feed”  the upper vents. You will see sone tent brands that have upper vents but no dedicated lower vents. They depend on higher fly edges and partially opened doors.  It works, but only kinda.

[Brad W]

It seems a hard thing to balance-breezy, slightly exposed tent design, high fly belt line,  to limit condensation or battened down tent, pinned to the ground, nearly bombproof. How to please a majority of the people?

[AK Granola]

I have yet to experience much condensation in the Notch, even with lowered poles and the fly pulled down more; there’s still a gap. And the gap is typically far enough from the tent body so that I’m fully protected. That’s one of the reasons for the large footprint, which has only ever been an issue in national parks with restricted campsites, where I’ve shared a site with other tents. We made it work.  I haven’t however, camped in it in super wet conditions like endless rainy PNW (or Alaska) days.  I think you just can’t stay dry there no matter what you do. But I’ve seen plenty of rain, some snow, some hail and been happy with that tent.

In Glacier National Park we experienced a severe and violent thunderstorm, with wind gusts so severe that the NPS advised hikers not to go up high passes. The rain was pelting, the wind was blowing in multiple directions, and we were in our tents when a sudden gust came directly overhead, almost like someone was pushing down and flattening our tents from above. That came with a huge clap of thunder, honestly terrifying. We were “sheltered” in trees, but not sure how much protection we got. But we survived, only minor dampness on my tent wall and none on my sleeping or other gear. An hour later the sun was out and everything dried off.

[David D]

They could provide an option to set the fly higher.  The xmid does this by using adjustable straps to suspend the inner, allowing various fly heights.  But in realty the bathtub walls are too short to take advantage of it when you need it the most like intermittent rain at night.

I’ve slept in the mec down to 20f in high humidity and I didn’t find the air movement to be uncomfortable, by dressing for the conditions

 

[Jeff McWilliams]

I’m obligated to re-share the excellent video from Tarptent on condensation!

 

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