Conical hipbelt shape

[Doug Coe]

I’m starting a mockup of a backpack that’ll have a full-wrap hipbelt. The idea is to have it be able to carry all the load of the pack when I want it to (maybe up to 35 lbs or so).

I could sew it directly onto the packbag (like HMG), but I’m thinking since it’s so hard to make, and I might end up making more than one pack, I’d like to have it removable to put on future packs.

Plus, if removable, I could then make it articulatable like Seek Outside’s hipbelts.

Which leads me to wonder: Why are Seek Outside’s belts not a simple conical shape? They seem to rise in the back: see https://seekoutside.com/hipbelt/

Any tips on the advantages or disadvantages of that shape?

Also, how “conical” should it be? What angle cone works well?

[Doug Coe]

I guess url’s aren’t links here unless you make them one. Weird. Here goes:

https://seekoutside.com/hipbelt/

[Doug Coe]

McHale’s Critical Mass hipbelt is a full-wrap belt and is shaped differently from Seek Outside’s. Would that be a better model for a good shape?

[Sam Farrington]

“The idea is to have it be able to carry all the load of the pack when I want it to (maybe up to 35 lbs or so).”

REI has a page with a number of hipbelts it sells separately.
But given different body shapes, no single belt can be said to best meet your goal.

I’ve found that trying on packs in shops that provide weights is a way to find out which ones work best for me. Unfortunately, none of them are able to “carry all of load,” so it becomes a question of degree.

Rue the day I stopped using a modified Jackpack design and switched to Osprey belts, which are not bad compared to others in the shops. The need to move weight off the back to the hips goes all the way back to Colin Fletcher’s earliest editions of “The Complete Walker.” If you can do it, it will pay many dividends for your back.

A friend tells me some of the Arc packs from Zpacks move the weight almost entirely, but the packs are expensive and can’t afford the time or money to order packs on line just to find out if any work for me. And don’t think ordering and trying belts separately is the answer, because the pack design has a lot to do which how much the weight shifts.

What with all the factors involved, not sure there is a good way to find out what belt and pack design will move the weight best for your individual shape. Sometime, will post another pack project on MYOG that works for me, but that does not mean it will work for others. For those who do a lot of long distance hiking on popular trails, talking to other trekkers, and seeing if they will let you try on their packs, may be one of the few ways to find out what works without spending years in the work shop building and trying different approaches.

This is a tough problem to solve, and what amazes me are the number of vendors on line that show the packs only from the front, with no idea of what the suspension looks like. We have a long way to go with addressing this important issue, so thank you for raising it in your OP.

[Doug Coe]

Sam—Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, it might take more than one try to get it right.

In another thread, Paul McLaughlin said about his myog packs “For my belts, I determined the precise shape that works for me through trial and error about 35 years ago. ”

I’m just trying to shorten the learning curve. :)

And you are so right about manufacturers showing just one view of packs on their websites. Unbelievable!

[Daryl and Daryl]

Doug,

I agree with the goal of supporting all the weight on the waist.  Have done so for nearly 50 years and  can say it makes a really big beneficial difference in ease of hauling.

I started with big thick store- bought belts that weighed nearly a pound.  Have since worked that down to a wrap around myog belt that is about 5 ounces.

A conical belt makes sense.  In practice, however, a non-conical belt does fine up to about 30 lbs and they are a lot easier to make.

Quarter inch foam wrapped in insignia cloth works fine and wears well. The foam/insignia cloth combo creates a stiff,  stable package that won’t stretch, warp or distort.

I also use detachable belts that can moved from one pack to another.

 

[Lester Moore]

You can make a good guess of the best hip belt shape for your body by making some mock ups out of heavy craft paper. That will at least let you dial in the correct length of the belt and the shape of the articulation around your hips. After that, you can test which foam and/or stiffening materials you want to use by making a hip belt mock up out of cheap fabric. Maybe you could even mock up what a fully loaded pack would feel like by inserting stays into the back of your mock up belt and then hanging weights from the top of the stay. You would also need to tie some webbing to the stays to function as a crude temporary shoulder strap.

[Doug Coe]

Daryl—I think I’ll go for the conical belt. I want to see how close I can get to my ideal pack the first time around.

I’ve never heard of insignia cloth before, so I looked it up. What’s the advantage? I figure you still sew it together somehow, right?

[Doug Coe]

Lester—Those are some good suggestions, thanks! I’ll start with the hipbelt on my ULA Catalyst for a shape and go from there.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Doug – from my pattern drawing:

the outer lines are the fabric; the inner lines are the foam. the “relationship view” shows how they go together, although it is a little confusing since this still shows the full pieces including seam allowance. But I think you get the idea. This works for me, and has worked well for my friends for whom I have made packs.

Also: note that the top and bottom arcs are NOT concentric, due to the taper. If you just draw the top arc, then draw the bottom arc on a separate piece of paper and cut it out, then lay out the two ends at the measurements given, then you can just connect the two points that are the bottoms of the ends using the arc you have cut out.

[Doug Coe]

Paul—This is awesome! Thank you.

I have to admit, ever since I noticed some of your past pack making comments, I’ve kept an eye on what you have to say on the subject. Your packs are the closest to what I want in a big way.

I have the impression from things you said in the past that you used to make a one-piece belt. Now you’re doing a three-piece design. Have I got that right? And, if so, I’m wondering why you changed things up.

Like I said above, I’m planning on making a removable hipbelt so I can move it to other, future, packs I might make.

[Scott Nelson]

Paul’s plan for the hipbelt looks really good. Adding buckles that pull from the top and bottom of the hipbelt also help a lot.  I would also add that hips with more curves need a more angled hipbelt to match.  This is an area that a women’s pack should address.  Bean pole straight guys with no hips (like me) need less.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Doug,

Adhesive backed insignia cloth, when applied to both sides of the foam, stiffens things up a lot and reduces distortion and stretching of the belt.   I use it for shoulder straps too.  It reduces the need for sewing but the adhesive sometimes gums up up the needle where you do sew it.

fyi A typical 5 gallon bucket is pretty close to the conical shape that works for me.

[Paul McLaughlin]

I use two 1″ buckles on the belt in the drawing, (thank you Dan McHale), and I think it works well. I have done narrower belts, for my lightest packs, and on those I use a single 1 1/2″ buckle. That is also comfortable, but I think has a limit around 30 lbs. That narrower belt is the one-piece, with no lumbar pad; but I like the lumbar pad as it gives a little bit more padded area where the lower ends of the stays are against my back. Both versions are sewn to the pack along the same vertical lines, which in the case of the lumbar pad version are the outer edges of the lumbar pad. So in effect it does not matter that one is one piece and the other three, the only real difference is the width and the extra padded area of the lumbar pad version. I chose the attachment width because on my body, attaching to the pack any wider than that tends to mean that I don’t get full contact of the belt to my lumbar area if the pack is tightly stuffed.

I have also done this as a detachable hipbelt; in that case I used velcro on the hipbelt and solidly attached looplocs located right at the bottom of the stays. one side of the velcro is sewn to the back of the belt, the other side is on a strap sewn to the bottom edge of the belt. You poke the strap up through the looploc and press the two halves of the velcro together. Squeezed between belt and pack, and loaded in shear, that velcro can handle a lot of weight, more than you’d want to carry.

[Doug Coe]

Scott—Yeah, I’ve seen the two buckle design (McHale’s and Paul’s own myog packs). I’m sure it helps with a good fit, but I’d hate to have to close and open them every time I put my pack on. Still chewing on that detail.

[Doug Coe]

Daryl—Thanks for the info on insignai cloth. I think I’ll stick with sewing and stuffing the foam in, though that’s the harder way. Nice to know there’s a clever option though.

A bucket. Who knew?

[Doug Coe]

Paul—I see what you mean: The effect of your three piece version is pretty much the same as the one piece version.

Thank you for the elaboration of how you did the removable belt. Now I can visualize how to make it!

Someone on the forum (I forget who) pointed out that the type of double pull belt like on a Catalyst (which is the pack I’ve been using for years) is actually a fake-out: the short strap at the buckle just equalizes the tension on the top and bottom pull/adjustment straps. How did I not notice this myself?

Other makers sew the bridging straps right beside the buckle on each side to fix this. Do you think this design is about as good as your two buckle method? (I kind of hate the idea of fussing with two buckles.)

[Paul McLaughlin]

I have a couple packs with the double buckles and i have never found it to be fussy. The fit advantage is significant, I can feel it when I adjust them. I would not make a belt any wider than 3″ with a single buckle. And i think the pseudo double buckle arrangements are pointless, they all look like more work to sew than two simple buckles and cannot work as well.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Paul,

Thanks for the drawing.  Made a copy to keep for reference.

[Doug Coe]

Paul—Makes sense about the double buckles.

I’m trying to imagine how to get the foam into a removable belt. Any tips on how to accomplish this? I don’t want to use binding on the edges, I think it would be more comfortable without (more like how McHale and yourself do them). Thanks.

[Paul McLaughlin]

The way I put foam into belts and shoulder straps is to turn the thing inside out, then start to turn it right side out by folding the end inside itself just for an inch or two, stick the foam into that, and then sort of roll the fabric over the foam as you feed the foam in. It requires a lot of manipulation if the belt is wider in the middle than at the ends, but it just takes time to get it all in there. I work on it until I have the seam allowances folded to the outer face of the foam, which is a slow process but I do it because I get a smoother inside face that way.

[Doug Coe]

Paul—That’s the way I’ve done it on the shoulder straps of my practice project (a RayWay kit that I’ve gotten part way through so far). I didn’t imagine it could work with a one piece hipbelt due to the wider middle. I’m surprised you managed to do it! I’ll give it a try. Thanks for the tips.

[Doug Coe]

Oh, I just realized: With a one piece hipbelt, after you stuff the foam all the way in and get the seams straightened out, you have to sew up that open end. I guess you just turn the fabric to the inside and…hand stitch?

[Ivo Vanmontfort]

If possible, you can make a split in the middle?

the split is hidden when the backpack is finished

 

more:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uxcDNkvjRpaomNbB3

[Doug Coe]

Ivo—That is one handsome pack! Laminated wood stays: wow, that’s going the extra mile (kilometer).

Thank you for the hipbelt idea. I might use that if I can’t get it to work better some other way.

[Author]

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