Clothing recommendations still needed

[Zack Freije]

I’m rethinking my layering system based primarily on all the great feedback I’ve received on here recently.

Current:

Base layers:

SmartWool NTS 150 SS (6.3 oz) & LS (6.2 oz) shirts

SmartWool NTS 250 LS shirt (8.4 oz)

SmartWool NTS 250 leggings (7.4 oz)

ExOfficio sport mesh boxer briefs (3.1 oz)

Rain/Wind:

wind/rain jacket – CAMP (7.6 oz)

Wind/rain pants – Montane (6.9 oz)

Rain kilt – Zpacks (1.4 oz)

Rain Mitts – MLD (1.3 oz)

Warmth Layer:

Patagonia nano puff pullover -synthetic down (10.1 oz)

Synthetic down hood (2oz)

Total weight, excluding base layer: 29.3 oz

What I’m thinking about transitioning to:

Base layer: same

Wind layer:

wind jacket – Ebay/LUL/Zpacks (2-4 oz)

Wind pants – any recommendations? I’ve only seen LUL (2 oz)

Rain layer:

Poncho – Packa 20d (9.5 oz)

Rain kilt + rain mitts (2.5 oz)

Warmth layer:

Down jacket  – MontBell Ex Light (5.6 oz)

Fleece Jacket – Patagonia R1? full zip (12 oz). Hoodie? Other suggestions? This would be for mid weight warm that can handle moisture.

Synthetic down hood – (2 oz)

Total weight is 36.6 oz

 

The new plan is roughly 7.3 oz heavier, but I won’t have to carry all of it all the time, and I think it provides more flexibility.

What about sitting around campsite in the winter? Will the Smartwool NTS 250 pants, paired with the wind pants be sufficient? Do I need to consider down pants? The coldest I’ve done this year was 16 deg F including windchill. The Montane pants seemed to do fine, though I didn’t spend a lot of time lounging around to be honest.

 

 

[Zack Freije]

Or maybe a fleece vest instead?

I would use the fleece layer primarily as a breathable insulating layer including wet weather conditions. I would use it under a windshirt in cold and windy conditions or light drizzle.

This means I need it to be very breathable.

The question is will a vest be sufficient? And does the fleece provide enough heat release to make a pull over just as functional as a full zip (for venting)?

How about the Arcteryx Dslta LT Zip Neck? It specs out at 8.1 oz.

Or is the Arcteryx DELTA AR ZIP NECK (11.5 oz) a better comparison to the R1 for warmth?

[Paul S.]

I am a big fan of 100 weigh fleece pullovers. They can be found cheap from many different stores. I find quarter zip to be enough if I need to wear a fleece.

[Arne L.]

Your clothing setup seems fine, although: I’m from Europe, more or less used to wet & windy conditions.

About wind pants: Patagonia Houdini & Montbell Dynamo are populair choices here. Personally I use wind pants from As Tucas (53g), a European cottage manufacturer. I use them mostly as camp-pants or bug-protection in 3-season conditions since my legs rarely get really cold.

Wouldn’t opt for a fleece vest. I prefer a 100-weight fleece with a quarter zip. I find the sleeves help for better moisture management when wearing a (hard)shell; it makes your arms a lot less clammy.

[Mark Fowler]

+1 on the 100 wt fleece 1/4 zip. I find it the most versatile mid layer for 3 seasons.

A comment on wool. Very lightweight wool fabrics (merino is just a breed of sheep that tend to produce wool of 19 microns or less), 120 – 180 gsm, have properties which justify their use but with weights heavier than 180gsm (the 250gsm you reference) you are better with synthetics such as the 100wt fleece.  This is due to the fact that wool absorbs water, and in doing so releases heat, but is much, much slower to dry absorbing heat and becomes quite heavy when saturated.  In the lighter weight wool fabrics the drying time and weight gain are proportionally lower and are more readily traded off against lower funk levels etc which is why they are so well regarded.  The heavier wool fabrics are more a marketing ploy to sell more wool even though the negatives of wool start to gain the upper hand.

PS. When I grew up New Zealand was always known as a location for growing very coarse wools for use in carpets, not super-fine wools. Australia has been the favoured location for growing the super-fine wools for almost 200 years.

[Bob Moulder]

Zack, I hope you’re able to get out to field test all this stuff.

I occasionally go out in miserable conditions for dayhikes and then gradually extend my outings to 1- or 2-nighters with relatively easy bailout options to see how stuff actually works.

You want to KNOW for sure that your gear is going to work when the poop seriously hits the fan, and you also want a routine for how you’re going to deploy it in such situations and know instantly which layers you’re going to use. You learn all manner of little tricks and discover all sorts of little surprises on these test trips.

[Link .]

. Discount Dance Supply Rip Stop Pants .

[Nick Gatel]

Most of the stuff you have listed will work. You just need to use them in the combination for the conditions at hand; know when to wear 1, 2, 3 or even sometimes 4 layers. Also when fleece, synthetic, or down is appropriate.

The Patagonia and Montbell wind pants are fine. I have the Montbell but don’t bring them on every trip. I bring my Houdini wind shirt on every trip — it’s my most used piece of gear and I don’t use it as rain shell because I am not going to keep reviving the DWR on this heavily and often dirty shirt.

Bob made a good recommendation about “practicing.” There are no universal how to do it for each individual. We are all different in physiology, when and where we walk, how we walk, and we we utilize layers in any given condition. The 3 layer system works and experience is the best teacher. A short while back Ryan wrote a pretty good article on selecting layers for cold weather.

 

[James holden]

if its gonna be wet … bring a fleece

a normal fitting fluffy fleece … the snug fitting technical thin fleeces arent the best when its soaking wet

in those conditions a cheap department store 100wt fleece outperforms the cool looking $$$$ technical ones

;)

[HiLight]

Zack – Other than the SmartWool leggings, I didn’t see anything on your list for lower body warmth. I find that Under Armour waffle weave bottoms to be extremely warm for their weight, and they work well for resting in camp, especially with wind or rain pants (pssst … go with chaps) over them. I’ve worked in -15°F in them and never felt cold. UA Base 4.0

Patagonia Capilene Thermal Weight garments are another popular option. I planned to buy a set, but the UA bottoms have been so good that I haven’t bothered.

 

[Pigeon]

Military pant liners are a worthy cheap addition for Ohio winters, I think they’re about 9 oz and $7.

Echoing the recommendations for fleece pullovers, I use a pair of 8 oz  (100 wt?) old navy fleece sweats, not sure how they compare in warmth with wool or grid fleece tights but they seem a lot warmer and I can wear them alone around camp..and I’m wearing them right now.

 

edit/p.s. There’s no way I could sit around in subfreezing temps in a base layer and windpants

[HiLight]

There’s no way I could sit around in subfreezing temps in a base layer and windpants

Why not?

[Pigeon]

I’d be uncomfortable

[HiLight]

I assumed it was a comfort issue, not a fashion faux pas. : )

Why would you be uncomfortable? The reason I ask is that I find the heavier grades of thermals like the UA Base 4.0 to be very warm, but they need some wind protection to get the most out of them at lower temperatures, much like fleece options. Throwing wind or rain pants over either while at a relatively low activity level is a comfortable, lightweight option that works for me. Of course, all of this “comfort” talk is is tied to the actual conditions.

I find lighter bottoms to be more like a traditional base layer than heavy thermals and won’t be nearly as warm. When I’m on the move, I stick with something like Cap 3 or the lighter REI knock-offs, with some softshell pants (with full length side zippers for venting) over them. Btw, those military bottoms are a good, affordable option. I’d suggest buying as new as possible to avoid degraded synthetic fill.

[Pigeon]

I might run a little cold or have poor circulation, definite possibility as I neglect my health. I use a thin polyester base layer and a thick middle layer under pants when I work outside in the midwest winter, no where close to -15 but low activity. A few years ago my car’s heat stopped working in February and I gutted it out, thanks only to my extra pants! I also have waffle fleece and thick wool tights, I suppose there could be one layer thick enough for me but I haven’t seen them sold as long underwear.

I notice you say “relatively low activity level”, I like to think of my warm in camp clothing as something I can pass out in:).

[Pigeon]

Maybe the wind pants would make a big difference though, I’m thinking about softshell pants or work pants as the outer layer.

[HiLight]

Nothing like being cold and not having a way to warm up outside of your body heat.

I highly recommend a decidedly non-BPL bit of clothing for loafing around when car camping, or throwing in the car for winter emergencies: Carhartt zip-to-waist, Arctic grade, insulated bibs.

I used to work outside and in unheated buildings, so I needed something that was warm enough, but also easy to remove or vent. I’d never buy a pair of insulated pants without full side zips. They make temperature regulation simple, and they can be put on/off without sitting down or removing your footwear. The goofy versions that only zip to the knee aren’t worth the few dollars saved, IMO. Bibs also ventilate better up top than a full coverall, and allow better range of motion. If you look around a cold construction site, you’ll find quite a few people wearing those Carhartt bibs, or something very similar. They usually sell out early in the season, so it’s worth buying sooner than later.

[HiLight]

Maybe the wind pants would make a big difference though, I’m thinking about softshell pants or work pants as the outer layer.

I have an older pair of Mountain Hardwear Conduit softshell pants that work well for me, but I’m sure there are lighter options today. The MH pants transition well for me between huffing uphill while snowshoeing (sides unzipped at top) and full winter wind above tree line (fully zipped). As long as I can stay on top of the snow, I don’t wear tall gaiters with them since they have a shock cord at the cuff.

[Zack Freije]

This weekend was a good example of why I need to upgrade my clothing options.

It was alternating hot and cold with a lot of wind and some dampness at times.

I’ve been able to handle this as well as hot+wet and cold+wet, however, I haven’t exactly been “comfortable.” Sometimes it’s a grin and bear it situation.

If I had the R1 this weekend plus a windshirt, I would have been very happy.

Also, while I do have the ExOfficio sport mesh boxer briefs, I find my convertible pants don’t allow moisture to transfer through to let my boxers dry out. The pants themselves dry quickly, but don’t wick or allow air flow.

So, I’m thinking running shorts may be better.

Also, I’m curious about potentially changing my 250 wt merino wool leggings in for some kind of power stretch. Then I don’t mind wearing those with shorts. As it is now, I don’t feel comfortable wearing the merino leggings with shorts because they are fragile and expensive. They typically go on at night at camp. I’d rather have an insulating layer I can wear during the day that also allows for some moisture transfer.

I hadn’t really planned to buy fleece or down pants. I haven’t felt like I needed those on any of my trips to date honestly. But maybe that’s because I was wearing the merino tights with a pair of hiking pants and a pair of shell pants on top.

I’m concerned that powerstretch tights and a pair of windpants may not be sufficient.

[HiLight]

^ Looks like you had a fun place to wander.

You could try shorts, tights, leggings, and wind pants; mix & match as needed.

[Zack Freije]

I’m looking at running shorts, but I want to cut the liners out and I don’t want a zipper pocket at the waist in the back as I think that would interfere with my backpack.

I’m primarily looking for lightweight and fast dry times from the shorts. My current convertible pants have horrendous moisture wicking such that my underwear really doesn’t dry out.

TNF Better Than Naked seem to jump out as a popular option. I have been trying to read running magazine reviews and trail running blogs to discern say the top 5 running shorts and then compare price and weight. Not much luck unfortunately.

I’ve been wearing the ExOfficio sport mesh boxer briefs, but looking at outdoorgearlab reviews, these have poor drying times as well. I’d like to improve this, so I was looking at Icebreakers, but they have a seam that goes from the crotch up the back and my guess is that this becomes an irritant though I saw few reviews that mention this. The only other recommended option was Smartwool NTS 150 boxer briefs. The concern there is short life span and very high cost. Any other options?

I’ve been looking at tights or leggings or whatever you want to call them. Again, I’ve been researching both running and cycling as well as backpacking. I’m not exactly sold on compression tights. I’m looking for something that maintains contact with the skin, allows range of motion, wicks moisture, dries quickly, and provides some warmth during activity (warmer when wet). There is no consensus as to brand, style, etc. I’m quite confused. I can’t find any reliable data on weight either.

I looked for reviews and discussion here, but it was all quite old and I’m guessing some things may have changed since then.

The next question is when I stop for the day and it’s fall-winter from 40 deg down to the teens, what do I put on over the tights to stay warm? I’m guessing the tights don’t need to do too much while I’m hiking, but once I stop I’ll need something else…

[HiLight]

If you haven’t already, check this out: http://andrewskurka.com/tag/core-13/

He has a page devoted to running shorts, and you may find how he presents the clothes as a system useful.

[Zack Freije]

Thanks! That’s where I got some of my ideas including the North Face Better Than Naked shorts…

[Zack Freije]

Some new items arrived:

Patagonia R1 jacket: 295g/10.4oz

Nextrip wind jacket: 85g/3.0oz

Nike Flex Phenom 5″ running shorts (removed liner): 97g/3.4oz

UA ColdGear Armour Twist Compression Leggings – micro fleece lined: 197g/6.9oz

OR Fleece Windstopper ear band: 1.0oz

[Zack Freije]

The running shorts are all over mesh. I’m hoping this will help with airflow and faster drying times for my underwear.

I ordered a pair of the Rab DryFlo 80…so we’ll see on my next trip how those manage moisture in combination with the shorts.

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