Budget cutbacks affecting backpackers

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Has the USFS and NP system been actually funded for decades? Oh no it hasn’t. They take money from the western states ALL the time to pay for wildfires. So, business as usual. But also, when we were young we didn’t expect all the amenities we have now. When did you all get so soft?

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

“but in South Dakota, when you see a giant “W” in the sky, you have to assume it’s advertising for Wall Drug. ”

Yeah, but eventually you drive by Wall and it’s done. I was more invested in the winds slamming us that day……

[AK Granola]

Not sure what amenities you refer to Sarah, but permits are kind of nice to have.

[Terran Terran]

I’m not sure what amenities they have now that they didn’t have 60 years ago. There has been an increase to serve the increasing number of visitors. Shuttle busses to keep traffic down. Guided tours to keep tourists away from critical areas, but that’s nothing new. Restrooms have an obvious advantage in keep down the mess. Bigger crowds require more funding..

[AK Granola]

Isn’t it amazing to think about the great work done for parks and trails in the 1930s, during the WPA and with the work of the Civilian Conservation Corps? At the worst economic time of the 20th century, when people were truly poor and hungry. And yet here we are in a wealthy time, a strong economy, and we’re cutting funding for basic upkeep of parks and trails.

CCC works I’ve seen – Grand Canyon, Glacier, and of course Timberline Lodge – masterpieces! Out of poverty and desperation our country created structures of beauty that have lasted almost 100 years. It was a time when people really and truly cared about their parks. I remember visiting some of these places with my Dad, and he was so proud of this work, that happened during his childhood. I love looking at these amazing works.

[Terran Terran]

Wealth is being worshipped. Our country is better off than it has ever been. Unfortunately, the more folks have, the more they want. Then we’re convinced that we’re being ripped off and should have more material goods than we need. It’s a pipe dream. Cutting services puts the burden directly on the working class. It’s all backwards.

[Mart]

From my experience only, I have not liked facilities run by concessionaires.

Actually, I have not had the same experience The  NFS campsites I’ve stayed in have always been well maintained. The camp hosts I’ve met have been nothing but friendly, helpful, and efficient. But, just like AK, these are only MY experiences. I have NFS reservations near Durango for July. We’ll see that happens then.

[Paul Wagner]

I agree about the USFS campsites.  In most cases, I have had very good experiences there.  But don’t get me started on the concessionaires for SEKI, Yosemite, or Crater Lake. Endless delays, delayed maintenance, poor customer service, and lousy employee morale all the way around.  Well, you got me started…

[Jerry Adams]

I’ve had good and bad experiences with campgrounds run by both FS and concessionaire

In order to get statistically significant answer to whether concessionaires are better or worse I’d have to treat this a lot more rigorously

Humans have cognitive problems with questions like this.

Same thing with whether facilities are better or worse than they used to be

They used to have outhouses made from lumber.  Then, after a while they start rotting and get decrepit.  Now-a-days, they have a lot of these concrete outhouses.  They seem to hold up a lot better.  I’m sure they cost more initially, but over their lifetime (forever?) maybe they cost less.  Or, at least they’re a lot less decrepit over their lifetime.

I think these costs are small compared to social security and medicare so it’s not a big deal one way or the other.  Defense department costs a lot too.  It will be interesting to see what happens with these.  I don’t think they’re going to stop taxing social security though which would increase deficit.  All of this other stuff is just performative.

[Terran Terran]

Without social security and Medicare, the burden would fall on the rest of society. We’d pay for it one way or the other. At least with these programs, some of the burden falls on the businesses and companies that benefited from the work of others, rather then on the working poor. With our system, if you don’t own property, or can’t afford the rent, you have no right to be anywhere. Property rights only come through government enforced deeds. In actuality, the land belongs to everybody, thus through deeds, your rights are taken away. Our public lands are the only thing that we as a society actually own. It’s not the kings forest, it’s our forest. By government of the people…these lands are preserved and protected from those who would take advantage of take them away.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Ya’all are soft. You don’t “need” a big government. It just makes your life easier is all. You want busses to shuttle you around parks, you want permits, you want to give them money at the entrance and for everything. You want flush toilets.

Maybe think back to when you were young and hungry. You were dirtbag hikers and backpackers, not asking Daddy Gov’t for permission. You went where you wanted, when you wanted. You peed in the bushes.

Oh yeah, and the forests and parks ARE the King’s lands. If you have to pay to visit them, they are not public. At all. If they can shut the gate and tell you that you cannot come in, it’s not “your” land. But you can defy it and walk around the gate. You can always be a rebel, and let your youth dirt bag return.

I didn’t stay inside 5 years ago when the governor of Washington State closed the state parks to people. I just walked around the gates and went inside.

Wake up people. You are your own master. And you sure as heck don’t need a luxury bus shuttle. That’s a want. Not a need.

[Paul Wagner]

When was the lst time you were in Yosemite, Sarah?  The policies in place there helped mitigate the massive traffic jams and overcrowding in one of the world’s most beautifu places. Those policies are part of protecting our national natural resources .  Without them, we get Niagara Falls instead of Vernal and Nevada Falls.

[AK Granola]

Sarah has become a major troll! Especially with silly and insulting phrases like “wake up people” or “ya’ll are soft” which are just rude, especially considering the social intelligence and outdoors experience of the members across BPL and in this thread. Too much time spent on extremist social media? Unlearned simple respect?

[Terran Terran]

In the old days, we’d just hitchhike. Most of the time, it was safe. Sometimes it wasn’t. We are all individuals. We work as a society for the good of all. I’ve seen a lot of do what you want laying on the ground drawing flies.

[Mart]

Property rights only come through government enforced deeds. In actuality, the land belongs to everybody, thus through deeds, your rights are taken away.

Nonsense!

 

Wake up people. You are your own master. And you sure as heck don’t need a luxury bus shuttle. That’s a want. Not a need.

Well stated rant. Collectively, we need to learn to quit sucking off the government’s teat.

 

[AK Granola]

Do you mean “teat?” Like social security or Medicare? Or just parks?

[Terran Terran]

We are the government. These are individuals with power taking away our rights.

How are deeds enforced?

[Mart]

Deeds protect your property rights.

[Terran Terran]

A piece of paper?

[Dan]

I think we all recognize that different types of public lands are aimed at different types of visitors, so the generalization that we are soft because we need bathrooms and shuttles is just silly. Anyone who reads this forum knows that is not true.

Personally, I don’t generally visit NPs anymore because they are too crowded and don’t allow my dogs, and I prefer out-of-the-way wilderness areas with fewer amenities and visitors. So budget cutbacks are unlikely to affect my experience, at least in the short-run. I spend much of my time in the wilderness off-trail or on trails that are already very poorly (and infrequently) maintained. But that’s just my choice.

As we know, the NPs were designed to provide a “dashboard experience” that is accessible to everyone. The obvious rationale was that since these areas were paid for by everyone, urban dwellers with little knowledge of the wilderness also deserved to have that experience. And the hope was that when more people have the experience, they will be more willing to allow their tax money to be used to preserve the land.

[Jeff McWilliams]

The National Park Service reported a record 331.9 million recreation visits in calendar year 2024.

Rules are in place so that future generations will have the same experience we have.  Obviously, the interpretation and implementation of their mission is sometimes flawed.   For example, I do not agree with how recreation.gov is run and how the Booz Allen Hamilton keeps profits from running that site.

But I do agree that it takes resources and money to support that mission.  Even deep in Wilderness (i.e. areas designated by the Wilderness Act of 1964), hikers expect some infrastructure, like trails and bridges over dangerous rivers (like the recently replaced bridge over the south fork of the San Joaquin River).   Users of National Parks expect even more infrastructure, like campgrounds, bathroom facilities, places to get food and water, and interpretive centers where they can be educated about their public lands.

That money has to come from somewhere.

[TahoeJeff]

A piece of paper?

Like the Constitution?

social security

A government enforced Ponzi scheme.

they can shut the gate ….. you can defy it and walk around the gate

Exactamundo!

 

 

[Terran Terran]

Just a piece of paper when it’s not enforced.

Ponzi scheme. The latest talking point. Not very original.

Civil disobedience. I’ll give you a hint. Don’t park your car there. Don’t ask me how I know.

[Michael S]

I think Jeff and Dan are exactly right, I spend most of my time on federal land within national forest, often in wilderness, often off trail, but access to those interior areas is on roads that need maintenance. This last fall Helene devastated a wide swath of the southern Appalachians, including wrecking roads in the national forests of Georgia and North Carolina. It took USFS crews months to clear downed trees and regrade roads. There are various levels of accessibility of public wild lands, some, like drive up campgrounds, are accessible for most, the majority of forest service roads in the southeast are accessible to passenger cars, but without maintenance, very quickly, only off road vehicles could get get through. I don’t think that should be the price of entry to use the national forest, and that certainly doesn’t help foster a new generation interested in the conservation of wild places.
Every year my family spends a week at Cumberland Island National Seashore. If you’ve never been please try, it’s beyond magical. We had to miss our trip last October, Helene caused significant damage and flooding on the Georgia coast, Cumberland Island was closed while repairs were made by NPS crews. These places are groomed for our use, protected and regulated for our future use, imperfectly of course, but I am deeply grateful  for them…my rambling ode to public lands.

Switching now to grammar scold, there have been a couple of attempts above at the best and proper American English second person plural, it is correctly spelled “y’all”   ;-)

[Dan]

You’re right, forest road maintenance is a massive and never-ending project. The numbers are almost hard to believe, but apparently the US Forest Service maintains almost 400k miles of roads. While it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison, the US interstate highway system comprises less than 50k miles.

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