- Jul 28, 2018 at 10:53 pm #3548764Franco DarioliBPL Member
@francoLocale: Gauche, CU.
Look like BA will have 5 shelters in their Carbon (DCF) series.
Should be more obvious from this photo
that the one presented so far is the 2 person version of the Fly Creek .Jul 29, 2018 at 3:44 pm #3548846Richie SBPL Member
I’d certainly consider that tiger wall 2 or 3 after a review or two, and perhaps a beer or two. People spend a lot more money on golf and what have you.Jul 29, 2018 at 11:50 pm #3548914Sam FarringtonBPL Member
@scfhomeLocale: Chocorua NH, USA
Roger, re: “Do you need to cut up the fly to install pole sleeves? I would have thought you could just sew them on. Whether a single layer of fabric could support the sewing on of a pole sleeve (as opposed to using a multi-layer seam): that’s another question!”
The short answer is yes, in order to have sturdy construction. The Terra Nova Solar 2, a double cross pole 4 season tent, is a good example of that. I thought about just sewing the sleeves on to 7D nylon. But that, or lapped seams for that matter, will hamper the bias stretch of the 7D, destroying its ability to form a convex, partial dome surface that creates more interior space. Also thought about using zig-zag stitching on the seam, but was repelled by the idea of making still more holes in the thin 7D. And looked at possible pole clips, as I noted with a link in that Tunnels and Domes thread; but am really looking for a basic rectangular fly that can be kept partially attached, fully attaches or comes off in a jiffy for drying out, and can be quickly replaced due to wear, or when better fabrics become available with better strength for weight, less sag, and still some elasticity. With time, we’ll see how it turns out.Jul 30, 2018 at 12:12 am #3548917
You have to remember that I tend to be a bit paranoid about high winds and bad weather. That’s what we are used to. If the tent is for benign conditions where you are just not going to get such bad weather, my concerns are a bit excessive.
My wife still remembers one of my early tents which could have the whole side lifted up as an awning for shade. No use in a storm, but pleasant on a hot summer evening.
So – can we expect a report one day on how it goes? Hope so.
CheersJul 30, 2018 at 1:00 am #3548930Mark VerberBPL Member
@verberLocale: San Francisco Bay Area
I think Valerie was spot on. This tent has a perfect nitch: people with more money than time who are doing the JMT, or really any of the CA sierras during the summer. So for summer only folks in the CA sierras, or people who had enough spare cash to have multiple shelters, each optimized for the likely conditions this will have at least a small audience.
Rain? It happens but it’s unusual and typically not a hard core storm. Wind, sure, but I don’t recall it getting above around 25mph during the summer except on exposed ridges which isn’t a sensible place to pitch. Even crappy tent structures can take 20mph… and if it’s not raining, don’t put up the fly, snuggle down in your bag, enjoy the wind… the frame+netting doesn’t catch that much wind. Bugs… well that can be a real issue, there are times when I counted 100+ land on me in less than 1 minute, Yeah, I want a space thats bug free where I can feel the breeze.
Would I spend $800 for a 1lb free standing shelter?… maybe. Would I buy the Fly Creek… nope. I hate the internal space of the Fly Creek. If they got the 1 person Copper Spur down to 16oz, and the two person down to 20oz, I would be tempted… but likely pass. Like may of you, for that much money, I would want a shelter I could use in a wider range of conditions. I have better things to do with my money,
I haven’t felt the need to change my gear list in the last six years other than pick up a double quilt for trips my wife joins me and some changes in clothing which are driven by my around town life, have very little backpacking only clothing, so when daily use / cycling / running / tri wear things out they get replaced.
–MarkJul 30, 2018 at 1:37 am #3548934Richie SBPL Member
I was quite impressed with the Akto. There is no reason to be trying to set up a 3.5llb tent on top of a hill with virtually hurricane force winds coming in.Jul 30, 2018 at 2:32 am #3548939
Bugs in tent? Yeah, happens.
On the GR7 in France some years ago. Large midges I think.
CheersJul 31, 2018 at 3:07 pm #3549175JohnBPL Member
@johnnyh88Locale: The SouthWest
More information from Andrew Skurka:
I am really surprised Big Agnes chose 0.34 oz/yd2 DCF for the fly and 0.51 oz/yd2 DCF for the floor. That seems awfully weak. Does Big Agnes do any product testing at all?Jul 31, 2018 at 3:24 pm #3549180Dan DurstonBPL Member
@dandydanLocale: Canadian Rockies
That’s crazy. Wow. I’ve built stuff sacks etc from 0.33oz cuben and wouldn’t expect it to last long for a tent fly. I would find it extremely hard to justify that kind of money for a tent with that short of a lifespan. They’re going to be a lot of warranty claims from this one – especially for the TigerWall since that tent will appeal to mainstream users that will expect a reasonably durable tent. With all the Big Agnes marketing about DCF being stronger than steal, their customers are going to think they are saving weight because an exotic material provides the same functionality at a lower weight (like titanium vs steel), not because they are getting a much less durable product.
Similarly, 0.5oz cuben is a crazy choice for a floor IMO. I don’t even like the 1.0oz stuff for a floor because woven fabrics last longer, are much cheaper and can be about the same weight. These choices are extremely bold for a mainstream company.
Prediction: Big Agnes will regret the 0.34oz cuben by late next summer after they’ve already committed to it for the following year. So we’ll see 2 seasons of 0.34oz cuben tents from BA and then a retreat to fewer models and 0.5oz cuben flys.Jul 31, 2018 at 5:19 pm #3549193Katherine .BPL Member
Yeah, that fabric weight. At least I don’t feel bad about not being able to afford it.
Reinforces my perception that BA pushes too hard for low specs with lack of attention to other factors.Jul 31, 2018 at 6:14 pm #3549203bradmacmtBPL Member
That’s crazy. Wow. I’ve built stuff sacks etc from 0.33oz cuben and wouldn’t expect it to last long for a tent fly. I would find it extremely hard to justify that kind of money for a tent with that short of a lifespan. They’re going to be a lot of warranty claims from this one. And 0.5oz cuben is a crazy choice for a floor IMO. This is extremely bold for a mainstream company.
Prediction: Big Agnes use of 0.34oz cuben won’t last more than two seasons.
Couldn’t agree more… I was actually considering one, but there’s no way I’d own any of these based on fabric weights. Once again, there’s no free lunch, and with current fabric technology it’s pretty tough to get a 1P, double wall tent with poles much below 1.75 lbs. At least one that will hold up reasonably well.
I use a Nemo Hornet 1P, with everything including a Tyvek footprint it’s 33 oz’s.Jul 31, 2018 at 6:55 pm #3549216Katherine .BPL Member
One half of my mind: Cool, it would be nice to have freestanding cuben options. Even if this doesn’t work, glad they’re pushing the mainstream options, and I hope it begets more choices
The other half of my mind: I hope no one gets themselves into too bad a situation with it. Cottage gear purchases sort of come with that you-probably-know-what-you’re doing assumption. The guy who walks into REI sees the price tag and says “Yeah, give my The Best!” then cracks the pole and rips the fabric…
Does REI ever make the calculation: “No, we’re just going to get too many returns on that one”? It would have both good and bad implications.Jul 31, 2018 at 10:00 pm #3549254
Those who go up in the mountains are called mountaineers.
Those who come back down are called … survivors.
IF they sell at REI, the deal might include having BA wear the entire cost of returns.
CheersJul 31, 2018 at 11:00 pm #3549259Bruce TolleyBPL Member
@btolleyLocale: San Francisco Bay Area
I think the scenario would go like this. The tent is returned to REI under terms of REIs 12 month satisfaction guarantee. REI loses revenue, the cost of the sale. If REI turns around and makes a claim against BA under terms of their contract (or REIs contract with a distributor), BA would lose revenue, the contract price or wholesale price of the item from BA to REI. Companies normally plan for a certain percentage of warranty claims. I do not think BA would cover the difference between the wholesale price and the retail price.Jul 31, 2018 at 11:07 pm #3549260
I do not think BA would cover the difference between the wholesale price and the retail price.
Could be a losing proposition for REI, couldn’t it?
CheersJul 31, 2018 at 11:11 pm #3549262
Could mean (unwarranted) long-term public distrust of Dyneema, and affect cottage manufacturers.Jul 31, 2018 at 11:16 pm #3549263
The problem is that I am not sure it would be UNwarranted for the general public.
CheersJul 31, 2018 at 11:18 pm #3549264
The fault would lie in the design choice (of weight), not in the fabric per se. But the public apprehension would likely not make that distinction.Jul 31, 2018 at 11:23 pm #3549266JohnBPL Member
@johnnyh88Locale: The SouthWest
Maybe long-term distrust of Big Agnes products…like they are doing with their 15F rated AXL “Insulated” sleeping pad.
If I paid almost $1000 for one of the Tiger Wall 2-person DCF tents, and my fly was damaged after a minor hail storm or my tent floor had dozens of holes and abrasion damage from a single week-long trip, then I would be one unhappy customer.
The only reason I can see for selecting the very light weight DCF variants was to find a way to justify the high cost of DCF. Consumers may be willing to pay these prices to save 8 or 16 oz or more. But to save 4 or 6 oz? Probably not.Jul 31, 2018 at 11:26 pm #3549269Monte MastersonBPL Member
@septimiusLocale: Changes Often
I don’t suppose it’s possible that BA (and retailers) would offer NO warranty on the Dyneema FC, saying up front that due to the fragile nature of the materials there’s no guarantee.
The more likely answer is that at $750 for a tent that costs $250 to produce, BA and REI are figuring returns into the equation.Jul 31, 2018 at 11:51 pm #3549272Monte MastersonBPL Member
@septimiusLocale: Changes Often
I agree with Skurka that the Carbon Tiger Wall II is the best looking tent of the new BA Dyneema offerings, however, he is wrong when he says that BA is the first wholesaler to produce DCF tents. Terra Nova has been putting out the Ultra shelters for at least 7 years now.
The more I look at the BA carbon tents the more I’m getting on board. Yes, the .34 flies and .51 floors seem too flimsy, but I have to respect BA for going drastic. They threw caution to the wind and went all out, and that takes guts (or foolishness).
In drier climates where rain is less likely, these tents may be just fine for the fast and light who don’t care about price. The open air bug protection of the Carbon tents will be just fine, however, I’d want a groundsheet underneath the .51 floor.
As Skurka points out, and as I stated earlier in this thread, there are many, many backpackers who just WILL NOT do trekking pole tents.Aug 1, 2018 at 12:24 am #3549278
I guess Big Sky International does not count here as a wholesaler (?). but they have been producing a range of dyneema (Let-it-Por) versions of their sophisticated line-up for many years. With the added potential of combining dyneema inner/outer with supersil outer/inner, as well as both inner and outer: Mirage 2P, Soul 1P and 2P, Wisp 1P.Aug 1, 2018 at 12:33 am #3549280
however, I’d want a groundsheet underneath the .51 floor.
But that means you have lost most of the benefit of the UL weight.
CheersAug 1, 2018 at 3:20 am #3549331
The more I think about it, the more sophisticated I consider the BSI offerings in Cuben (dyneema) to have been – and to be. Bear in mind that in earlier years, they have offered dyneema versions of some of their other models, in addition to the 4 listed above. In addition, rather than focusing on novelty, Big Sky has focused on refining their proven designs in an integrated schema of related designs, and providing maximum choice to the user in terms of choice of fabric of fly, inner, and choice of pole material, as well as optional accessories of tent bag, stakes, footprint, guys. Pretty_damn_cool.Aug 1, 2018 at 5:00 am #3549351Eric BlumensaadtBPL Member
@danepackerLocale: Mojave Desert
I’m getting bummed looking at all this new SUL gear in this forum and discovering that my TT Moment DW is still a very good UL tent. I WANNA BUY SOMETHING NEW (but better than what it replaces).
And looking at the ESBIT BURNER thread I realize my Ti Caldera Cone stove is still very cutting edge. I was hoping for at least some new solid fuel tabs, say de-tuned solid rocket fuel. Can’t a guy get a 2 cup, one minute boil time??
Then there are all the clown-colored hiking shoes. What?? Must I toss aside my carefully cultivated sense of fashion and decency and look like a street mime?
Finally, WHY oh why must every desirable piece of new SUL gear cost me two mortgage payments?AAaarrrggghh!
So… I’m thinking my new SUL outfit will be a thong and flip-flops. There! Take that you SUL freaks.
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