Arctic stoves

[bradmacmt]

Sorry, but I am going to have to firmly disagree.

I have an 8R and a Taiwanese copy. Both are fairly low power stoves.
Propane and propane/butane stoves both beat white gas hollow for sub-zero conditions – and I have used many stoves of all sorts in the snow.

I remember one sad trip with a liquid-fuel stove when the pot boiled over and the water hit the pre-heat pipe over the flame. The shock dislodged lots of scale inside the pipe which blocked the jet solid and could not be cleaned in the field (late at night in the snow). Reliabilty? Maybe not.

White gas is a dinosaur today.

The difference between you and I is I’ve used the 8r, Svea, and MSR at well below zero F.

But I don’t use Taiwan knock-offs and I know how to prime… “low power”… give me a break!

[edited -MK]

[David Thomas]

I, too, kept with my white-gas stoves longer than I should have.  I knew the BTUs/weight of a liquid fuel in a thin metal container significantly exceeded the BTU/weight of a compressed gas in its container but I wasn’t factoring in the lack of priming fuel, nor the easy-on / easy-off nature of canister stoves that allows you to use them more efficiently.  And then there’s all the safety issues – flare-ups, the difficulty of gauging precisely how to prime and restart a warm (not cold, not hot) stove and how different it behaves at -20F than at 40F.

I’ve got years and years of 8R use, decades with a 123R and I just haven’t found a niche in the last 20 years in which they’re the best solution.  From 100F down to -25F, butane mixes are easy and predictable.  At all temperatures down to -40F propane is cheap and even easier (although heavier).

It makes me a little sad (and NickG sadder), because there’s an elegance to the brass Svea that a $14 BRS-3000T will never have.  But like an Apple II which I could diagnose and repair down to a chip level and do a few things with it that Woz himself couldn’t, as a practical matter, it’s just not as useful as more modern options.

But HYOH, and BYOS (bring your own stove).  There’s a stubborn crustiness, admirable in some ways, to the “from my cold, dead hands” school of Svea users like Nick.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Well, HYOH, and BYOS are great concepts HOWEVER, if your on a 380 mile 10 day hike to the Artic Circle at up to -40 F  temperatures with no chance of re-supply, whatever you bring HAS TO WORK and be RELIABLE.  That and if you do have a test chamber that goes does to -65 F you better get some practice in before starting this expedition.  My 2 cents.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Brad

The difference between you and I is I’ve used the 8r, Svea, and MSR at well below zero F.
That is not a difference. I have used the 8R and various MSRs and Colemans in the snow for many years. I finally gave up on them when I was testing all sorts of stoves for CO emission. The performance of the canister stoves was a revelation.

The Taiwanese copy was a present, not a purchase. But I found it performed just the same as the 8R. (Taiwanese, not Chinese.) But both are what I would call ‘low power’ compared to propane/butane. Yes, that was a surprise to me too at the time. It turns out that the myth of low power in canister stoves came from the old French Bleuet stoves: they ARE low power in comparison.

As I said, I have used petrol (white gas), kerosene, octane and even (briefly) diesel in a white gas stove for a long time. By the end of that era I too knew exactly how to prime them, even in the snow. I must say the diesel was not very good. My preferred method used a small dropper bottle of alcohol.

Cheers

[Perry H]

Def plan on practicing!  The chamber is used to test anything that could possibly be subjected to those temps. So we have tested ‘unit load devices’ that load cargo on planes, we test pharma shipping containers (that both need to maintain certain temps, as well as prevent things from freezing at those temps).  When one of our clients saw their products were used in a surgery performed at the South Pole, they re-wrote their extreme standards to go beyond those conditions.   As well as many mil specs go that low or lower.

[Perry H]

Thinking more about the propane – anyone use this?

 

https://www.campchef.com/stryker-150.html?k_cca=PleaseAssignTagToAd&radscid=13147413011&gclid=Cj0KCQiAys2MBhDOARIsAFf1D1esDv2I8YRcllE3IDKOFIPOAVyWfBMY0C7Ztod-GrdacBtg_jgqXiEaAjkIEALw_wcB

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

One piece of inmformation that is important is “How many people are using the stove”? 2? 4? 10?

You also may want to consider a stove with a pre-heat tube.  My 2 cents.

[Roger Caffin]

Hum – a modified Kovea stove (I think), with an approximation to a Reactor base tacked on. I may have seen this before. I think it has a propane connection rather than a Lindal valve.

It should work OK, I think, but I would recommend not using it inside a tent. Those heat exchanger fins are fine for heat transfer, but they can cause a fair bit of CO to be emitted. Not, TG, as much as the lethal Reactor stove, but still a bit.

The big problem with the initial idea is the very tall gas canister. It is not what I would call stable, except maybe on a solid table or embedded into the snow. A sideways fall inside a tent could be a small disaster. That said, if the supplied legs work (and are used!), the stability might be OK outside the tent.

Interesting: they also have a butane version and can offer a pot support ring – to keep the pot base far enough above the burner head. Not so silly.

Cheers

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

My understanding is that propane will revert to a liquid at -44F.  I would suspect that a full canister may work at those temperatures, however; if the gas flow rate is high the canister will quickly cool off even more.  An invertable stove may work, however; now you are adding more potential -40F failure points: hoses, o-rings, valves and such.  If you are going to be down I. The -40 F range, it may be best to simple like the mushers and use alcohol in a very simple stove.  No brain, no headache. My 2 cents.

[Roger Caffin]

I would suspect that a full canister may work at those temperatures,
It does not make any difference whether the canister is full or down to 10%. None at all.

if the gas flow rate is high the canister will quickly cool off even more.
If used with an upright stove where the fuel has to vaporise inside the container, this is correct. Mind you, once you get a flame going some radiation from the flame back onto the container will really help, and there are other tricks of the trade as well.

An invertable stove may work, however; now you are adding more potential -40F failure points: hoses, o-rings, valves and such.
Yes, a remote inverted canister stove will do just fine as the vaporisation does not happen within the container.

Normally one is not concerned about lower temperature limits with a stove, but the seals at the canister can get cold. The ‘normal’ material for a stove is Viton, which is rated down to -29 C (and up to +250 C). It is common to use the slightly less expensive Nitrile or Neoprene at the canister, and these go down to -40 C/-43 C.

If you are going to be working colder than that (UGH!), then a change to materials such as fluorosilicone (-60 C), Norprene (-60 C), PFA (-100 C) or Teflon (-185 C) should be considered, although there are many other options at the cold end. It is a specialised subject: consult a specialist supplier. Stuff IS available.

I would suggest not using silicone as it is known to be slightly porous to propane, although the effect at an O-ring would be extremely small.

I use Nitrile for the O-rings on the canisters, Viton at the stove, and PFA for the hose on my stoves.

Cheers

[David Thomas]

While you want a stove to melt snow into water (be emotionally prepared for how many pine needles and how much dust is in even the cleanest-looking snow), I can see an argument for otherwise going no-cook.  I know I’ve often lost more BTUs (Joules, ergs, electron-volts, etc) standing around a stove, then waiting for F-D food to reconstitute, then waiting for it to cool down enough to eat.  It’s all great and a big win if I’m in my sleeping bag, and SOMEONE ELSE is minding the stove, but solo, I’m often just getting dressed in my bag and hitting the trail, letting my exercise warm me up, as I nibble on oatmeal cookies or some other hike&eat foodstuff.

[Roger Caffin]

Outside the snow, Sue and I usually just have home-made muesli with cold water for breakfast. In the snow, I warm the water slightly. No fuss.

For dinner – well, we are a bit more demanding there. However, inside my winter tent with my legs in my bag and a good puffy on and the stove going, I don’t get cold. The tent does keep the warmth in a fair bit.

Cheers

[DAN-Y]

The 6633 Arctic Ultra: Special Yukon Edition isn’t just a race, it is an adventure and an expedition ending when you reach the Arctic Circle and experience some of the most extreme and most beautiful landscapes on the planet.

Passing through the Tombstone National Park and taking in the sites of the Ogilvie Mountains, this is not a race to be taken lightly. The full distance covers over 12,000 feet of elevation through all the weather conditions the Arctic can throw at you.

The Yukon Edition temporarily replaces the normal 6633 route whilst we wait for life to return to some form of normality in all corners of the globe. There will be a 120 mile version and a 250 mile version with a new itinerary. The race will take place entirely within the Yukon and on the Dempster.

All the hallmarks of the normal 6633 remain. This is a self sufficient race in one of the most extreme environments imaginable. Competitors will be tested to their limit in order to successfully complete this route and reach the Arctic Circle.

 

https://www.6633ultra.com/

[Chad S]

In the remote reservoir with an alcohol stove do you need to keep the reservoir warm also? Or just the initial amount of alcohol that you light in the stove?

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Alcohol does not need to be kept warm.  In cold weather, alcohol will still be absorbed into the wick via capillary action.  Once in the wick, alcohol is easy to light as the surface to volume ratio is high and the fuel will quickly vaporize.  Adding additional fuel may cool the stove down for a little bit but the stove recovers quickly.  My 2 cents.

[bradmacmt]

Outside the snow, Sue and I usually just have home-made muesli with cold water for breakfast. In the snow, I warm the water slightly. No fuss.

For dinner – well, we are a bit more demanding there. However, inside my winter tent with my legs in my bag and a good puffy on and the stove going, I don’t get cold. The tent does keep the warmth in a fair bit.

Roger, I think we all know in Australia/New Zealand you’re NOT dealing with the temps we’re dealing with here in the Central Rockies of North America.  Yours are pretty mild winter temps. You can have your propane/butane blends. I’ll take White Gas.

Aside, all the hand-wringing about CO2 and flareups is just that… use your brain, prime well, and have great sub-zero stove use.

Tell you what, on a sub zero F night here I’ll set out OVERNIGHT my circa 1974 Svea 123, and an MSR Pocket Rocket Deluxe, fuel, pots, etc and take a video of what works best come the morning… I promise you, Moulder strip or not, the White Gas will win the contest.

Also, controlled lab tests are all well and good, but were the fuel, stove, pots, etc., all subjected to sub zero temps for at least an hour before the test?

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

I think that there is no doubt that an Isobutane canister at -40 isn’t going to work. The beauty of propane is that it is fast and efficient, although heavy.
Unless you have a pump, the SVEA 123 is not going to be a fun puppy to light at -40F. Given that it is a “self-pressuring” stove, it is going to take a lot of energy to warm up. Matching it with a Sigg Tourist, would probably help keep some of the heat in an provide a little more thermal feedback to the stove.
It seems like propane or alcohol would be the easiest solution. My 2 cents.

[Roger Caffin]

in Australia/New Zealand you’re NOT dealing with the temps we’re dealing with here in the Central Rockies of North America. Yours are pretty mild winter temps.
Dunno about the word ‘mild’. We have camped in -17 C, and lowest here I think was -23 C. OK, Rockies are colder, no argument.

Tell you what, on a sub zero F night here I’ll set out OVERNIGHT my circa 1974 Svea 123, and an MSR Pocket Rocket Deluxe,
No contest. I could not promise that an UPRIGHT canister stove would do anything at all. It might not. Silly idea.

For sub-zero (C or F) you need a remote inverted canister stove. There are plenty around. It helps if you have kept the canister a bit ‘warm’ for starting, but once there is a flame you can warm the canister by radiation from that. Just move the windshield a bit.

Some people go a bit further. I would not go this far for fear of damaging the hose. Would not be too bad if you could be very sure the hose would not see any flame.

In fact, their practice is even ‘worse’, with direct heating of the canister thus:

Yeah, he is holding the canister IN the flame! However, in all fairness, he is also holding the canister in his hand, so it can’t be getting too hot. But I have to draw the line somewhere!

Cheers

[bradmacmt]

Unless you have a pump, the SVEA 123 is not going to be a fun puppy to light at -40F. Given that it is a “self-pressuring” stove, it is going to take a lot of energy to warm up.

Which is why you have to “prime the hell out of it.” You don’t need a pump, you just can’t be bashful about priming.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

OK, I just spent a week up at Fairbanks and I happened to bring some gear with me.  I did some testing at -38 F and hear is what I found out.  First, -38 F is INSANELY cold!  Lots of California winter gear on, but the cold just crept through: Boots, jackets, gloves, everything.

I was using a Pocket Rocket Deluxe (micro-regulator) and a Fire Maple HX pot with an Ocelot Adapter.   I was able to melt snow and boil a liter of water IF I kept pouring water over the canister (new and full).  It took abou 12 minutes to melt and boil the water on full throttle.  By itself, I could hear the burn rate drop as the canister got colder.  I highly suspect the adiabatic cooling just killed the perfromance at -38.  BTW, the canister was originally in a heated car with us so it did not dstart at -38 F.  Good luck on your trip, I would start thinking again about an alcohol stove.  Simple and it works.  My 2 cents.

[Roger Caffin]

A Pocket Rocket Deluxe (or any upright) at -38 F? You are a glutton for punishment!

Given that you were able to start with a canister from a heated car, I would suggest instead a remote inverted canister stove with the canister close to the burner to keep pumping heat into it – not that it would need all that much (heat).

This is one way . . .

Cheers

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

I was hoping for -30 F but the weather gods changed my plans.  The OP was interested in Artic stoves (down to -40 F) and I happened to have had a trip planned to Fairbanks AK so I thought what the heck.  That is a good trick; as well as the water bath or a Moulder strip.  That being said, who is actually having fun at -40 F?

[Roger Caffin]

Norwegians, climbing a glacier. I gather it was OK while the sun was high, in the middle of the day.

Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

It’s easier to use a butane torch lighter to warm up the canister, than pouring hot water on it

You have to warm up the torch lighter in your armpit

Says the man who never goes below 20 F : )

[Roger Caffin]

warm up the torch lighter in your armpit
Even better: travel with your butane lighter inside your clothing. Never let it get cold. After all, one could argue that this butane lighter is a crucial single point of failure for your whole survival.

Once you have an inverted canister stove running, everything else becomes possible.

My 2c
Cheers

[Author]

Posts