Anyone making 7D Tarps

[Chris R]

Just wondering if anyone is selling tarps in something like the RSBTR 7d Mtn silnylon? Enlightened Equipment were making tarps in 7d but have none listed in the main part of the store.

Any suggestions?

[Brad W]

I don’t think so, looks like you would have to have it made or MYOG.

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/lightestthinnest-material-for-tarp/

[J-L]

I’ve read that Simply Light Designs will make a tarp with 7D silnylon. It’s a custom option and I think you have to buy the fabric and have it mailed to them.

[Monte Masterson]

There are a number of mainstream companies making 7d tents, but I don’t know of any 7d tarps. I made the 7d cat cut tarp (w/doors) in the link and pic below about 6 weeks ago and since I posted the thread I’ve also added a 1.25″ cat cut on the long perimeter sides as well. Being so thin the 7d material is harder to get taut than say 20d. What kind of 7d tarp are you wanting and what dimensions Chris? A flat tarp would of course be a lot easier to make than a cat cut tarp. Do you have a sewing machine and/or any sewing experience?

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/7d-cat-cut-solo-tarp-w-front-doors-5-9-oz-sul/

 

[Chris R]

Not for me. A buddy was looking for a lighter option than the 20D tarp I made him.
He found a used DCF tarp but folk up here in Canada seem to ask a lot for used UL gear, trying to recover their shipping costs as well as a good proportion of the original cost.

I wondered if there were any options in other fabrics that could also be an option.

[Monte Masterson]

The Slingfin Splitwing is made with a high grade 10d 66 silnylon and weighs 7.9 oz. $165. It also has a front beak and looks pretty roomy (1P +). Vestibule and net tent are available as well.

https://www.slingfin.com/products/splitwing-ul-tarp

[Mark]

Here is the link to the 7D tarp on the EE site:

https://enlightenedequipment.com/paladin-stock/

[Chris R]

Thanks

I’ll send him the Splitwing link.

The Paladin is their hammock tarp. It looks to be remainder stock. They had a Rival Du in their as well but he was after something smaller.

[Turley]

I believe the Gossamer Gear Tarps use 10D

[Chris R]

Thanks

Forgot about those.

[Sam Farrington]

Looking at the GG nylon and DCF “Ones,” there doesn’t seem to be much difference in weight, around 2 lbs.  The nylon is ~$300, and the DCF, ~$540.

The biggest difference may be water absorption.  The nylon will absorb water, become sodden, and expand, resulting in weight gain and a sagging canopy in wet weather.

Silicone coated polyester fabrics (silpoly) have been offered by Dutchware and Ripstop by the Roll, and silpoly has also been used in Lightheart Gear and other shelters.  However the lightest silpoly runs ~ 1 oz/yd2, finished weight, quite a bit more than 7 denier nylons, that can run around 0.7 oz/yd2.  That is a ~30% decrease in fabric weight.  Allowing 7 yd2 for a spacious canopy, that amounts to an increase in dry fabric weight of ~2 oz. over the weight of a 7 denier nylon canopy.  Comparisons with DCF depend on choice of the three DCF sub-one ounce weights in common use.

Specifications of the overall weight of shelters often do not include weights of stuff bags, cordage, stakes and other items carried.  Because the differences in fabric weight do not amount to more than around 2-3 oz. for a large solo canopy, other factors should be considered, including waterproof ratings, performance in wet and windy weather, inside living space, packability, and durability, all in addition to the shelter weight specified by the seller.  Those specifications, along with fabric weights, expressed in denier or weight/area are probably not a reliable guide to performance and portability.

[Monte Masterson]

Nordisk has just put out a 10D solo flat tarp that measures 6.5″ X 8.2′ and weighs 6 oz without lines/sliders/hooks.The Voss 5 ULW is also a nice stealthy forest green color. Awhile back ulog was offering free US shipping on orders over $80, but I don’t know if that’s still the case. Nordisk is like Hilleberg (those Scandinavians) in that their silnylons are of supreme quality and are virtually unmatched. They ought to be at $191 for this new solo tarp. Yet it’s the best looking SUL flat tarp I’ve seen. Probably would hold up to strong winds as good or better than most 20d silpolys. Expensive yes, but if you don’t MYOG this one would be superior to all the rest.

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/tents-shelters-c25/tarps-c43/voss-5-ulw-tarp-p15070

[Sam Farrington]

I use silpoly for tents, but am wondering why anyone would make a nylon tarp at this point.  Would think that the issues with nylon – water absorption, wetting out and sagging- would be a bane for tarpers constantly tightening things up, in the rain of course, and most likely in the dark.

Have just one suggestion, and that is to compare the actual increase in silpoly weighing ~ one ounce/yard2, for your tarp as opposed to lower denier nylon.  You might be surprised at how little weight is actually added to your size tarp for the benefits of silpoly.

Tipik, makes both heavy and light tarps with the option of silpoly, either 15 or 20 denier.   Just a thought, but would like to know why folks are sticking to silnylon for tarps.  Granted, there would be delay with a cottage European company, but there may be some US cottage companies making the change as well.  Lightheart Gear, for example, with its light tent designs.

 

[Monte Masterson]

Good points Sam and I greatly respect your expertise, but there’s a reason why the vast majority of shelter manufacturers are sticking to silnylon. Sure, silnylon absorbs water and stretches, however the fact remains that it is stronger than same weight polyester. And I believe the stretching qualities become a good thing when dealing with strong winds. Granted I’m not a materials scientist and there are a lot of people who know a lot more than I do. The X-Mid, Lunar Solo, Marmot Tungsten UL, LHG and a few others are made with silpoly, but that doesn’t convince me it’s prudent, at least with the lightest fabrics. IMO I think far too much is made about the stretch and water retention of silnylon. I’ve made a couple silpoly tarps and they too absorb some water, albeit not as much. When I start to see MLD, Hilleberg, Tera Nova, Tarptent, Nordisk, Big Agnes and all of the other premier shelter manufacturers go with silpoly. then I might be won over. Perhaps they are just sticking to an accepted dogma which has become established over the years and are too resistant to change. I believe they are pretty savvy though and none more than the Nordic companies.

It would be very expensive Sam, but just think what an awesome UL tent you could make with the 10D silnylon that Nordisk is using. You have the skills I’m sure. Would love to see how it would turn out. Thanks for replying.

[dirtbag]

I kept my Gatewood Cape pitched outside for a full week straight.. heavy hard consistent rains and wind for about 4.5 of the 7 days it was pitched.  The ground and gear under it remained completely dry!  The underwalls of the cape itself too, remained completely dry. No wetting out or leaking at all. This backyard test for me confirmed the quality of the Cape and gave me the confidence to use it in these conditions out on the trail. It is Silnylon.

[Michael B]

Slingfin also uses silnylon for its shelters, and it is a company I would equate with being the exact opposite of dogmatic with regards to its design methodology. I believe Monte is onto something – fabric stretch, rather than fabric stiffness, is seen as the favorable quality for many of the critical load cases associated with shelter design. It obviously comes with some drawbacks. It seems many tent designers, and indeed most users, see these drawbacks as minor issues compared with the advantages, the main one being able to take higher impulse loads without catastrophic failure. I do wish we had our tent makers on the forum chime in with their own analytical data, but I suspect they would treat this analytical data as proprietary, and I think that would be reasonable. Fun thing with MYOG is we can use whatever we think is appropriate for our own use, so the sky is the limit :-)

[Sam Farrington]

Re:  “And I believe the stretching qualities become a good thing when dealing with strong winds … ”

Monte, the stretching qualities of silnylon are laudable, but are something quite different than the expansion of the nylon caused by absorption of water.  The latter creates sagging and wrinkling that destroys a taut wind resistant pitch.

As I’ve noted, I constructed a prototype of a first quality silnylon canopy that in the dry workshop was absolutely taut (before guying) and when placed outside, resisted wind gusts well.  However, after exposure to freezing rain outdoors, sagging and wrinkling developed that destroyed the tautness of the structure, and of its resistance to wind.  The inherent stability of the structure was completely lost until it was brought inside and dried out.

Since then, I’ve tested all kinds of silnylon in plastic embroidery loops, and the only improvement noted in foul weather was only slight, and that was with the best quality 6.6 nylon with PU either blended with the sil, or coated on one side.

Re: “I kept my Gatewood Cape pitched outside for a full week straight.. heavy hard consistent rains and wind for about 4.5 of the 7 days it was pitched.  The ground and gear under it remained completely dry!  The underwalls of the cape itself too, remained completely dry. No wetting out or leaking at all. This backyard test for me confirmed the quality of the Cape and gave me the confidence to use it in these conditions out on the trail. It is Silnylon.”

Dirtbaghiker,
If the silnylon was reliably waterproof for your purposes, it would not allow precip to drain onto the ground or objects protected by the canopy.  However, you were not in it.  Between rainstorms, day or night, the nylon could dry out, and there would be no condensation on the inside walls or soaked ground.  We sometimes forget the primary purpose of a tent is to keep us dry when wind and rain are severe, because most of the time the shelter stands solidly, assuming it has been well guyed and pitched.  These conditions will naturally increase and decrease as the weather changes.

But when storms gets nasty, which often seems to occur at night when we most need the protection of the shelter, and can last all night, the nylon will absorb water, become soaked, will expand and no longer stand tautly against the wind.  Rather, the canopy will blow about, and condensation and rain will get inside.  There are some areas where storms like this are rare, but from ‘well watered’ Colorado north, and east of the dryer states, these conditions are often common.  The posts of Roger Caffin about Australia, and from others about the Scottish highlands, confirm that this is not unique to the USA.

I don’t claim any special “expertise” about this.  There are just the conditions I’ve often encountered when trekking for substantial periods.  But make no pretense otherwise.

At this point, I’m looking at silpoly fabrics for quality, and to get an idea of how much heavier a denier is needed to provide durability if not equivalent, then at least in the same range as nylon.  If unsuccessful in this search, I’ll be the first to post my mea culpas.

[Tuukka U]

I don’t quite understand why people make such a fuss about sag, as if it would inescapably ruin the pitch. You can just retighten your guylines once the sag has set in and the problem is gone. Sometimes it’s a bit annoying if you have to do that in the middle of the night, but that’s been a rare occasion for me.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Yeah sag is very easy to deal with in the Gatewood Cape, or a larger mid. Both of mine I always pitch with the pole on a small angle. Once wet I just straighten it a little in the night. Don’t even have to get out. Done once is enough once its wet.

Bit harder on a tarp pitch perhaps, need to futz with guys, etc.

[Sam Farrington]

We may be talking about shelter in very different weather situations.  Admire your energy, but getting up and out in the middle of the night in a freezing downpour and fierce winds to deal with a no longer taut pitch and address ‘fiddle factor’ issues is not my cup of tea.

Once silnylon becomes wet and loose, a taut and aerodynamic structure is lost, and becomes much more vulnerable to punishing winds.  This has been my common experience, and often reported on BPL by hikers caught in this situation.  But in places with balmy climates, this might not be problem.  In places like northern, well watered Colorado, in unprotected areas at 10-13K feet altitude, it can be a very different story.  The same is true of lower mountains in the northeastern USA prone to heavy rain and wind.  With climate change, I’ve found this is a challenge that is increasing.

It may be a matter of where you camp, and how long you are out there.  On a 2-3 week loop in the mountains, getting some very nasty weather is more probable than on a 2-3 day overnight.  If I hadn’t been confronted so many times with these situations, and learned the benefits of site selection and a taut aerodynamic shelter, then would not be singing this song.

On a somewhat unrelated point, I took the embroidery loop of RBTR 7D silnylon I was testing in the weather, and placed it with the fabric taut in the freezer portion of the refrigerator where moisture is circulated, and the fabric soon became loose in the loop.  Then placed it in the drier lower section of the refrigerator, but still cold, and the fabric tightened right up.  So am inclined to think that the sagging and wrinkling of silnylon is much more a matter of moisture, especially saturation, than it is of a decrease in air temperature.

[Andrea C]

In my modest experience, water weights a lot more than fabrics so I’ll have a +100gr on a tarp that’s actually capable, rather than hiking the next day with a +1kg of moisture trapped in my gear…

Not all Silnylon is created equal, a good Silpoly may be just slightly less resistant to tear, but if you get a better pitch then you’ll end up with a stronger structure.

For the ultimate weight saving, I’d go for a Polycro tarp, which can be mended very effectively with common Gaffer tape. Privacy would be pretty much the same, a 7D fabric is essentially transparent…

[Sam Farrington]

“Not all Silnylon is created equal, a good Silpoly may be just slightly less resistant to tear, but if you get a better pitch then you’ll end up with a stronger structure.”

This sounds a bit like a non sequitur.  For equivalent weights, say 20D, if the silpoly is only slightly less subject to rips, how is a better pitch going to provide a significantly stronger structure than a better pitch using silpoly?

Nylon 6,6 may be stronger than the plain 6, but have not seen evidence that it will provide a stronger structure in a storm; which is when you need it.  If anything, the absorption of moisture in the nylon, will expand the fabric, and reduce the strength of the structure until it can be retightened by guylines and stakes.

Were tyvek to expand and wrinkle when moist, doubt it would be used for housewrap.

What I’m saying is that weaknesses of silpoly vs silnylon need to be shown by evidence.  As was done in a recent thread about testing RBTR “membrane” silpoly.  Hope we will see more evidence on this issue.  In the meantime, it may be smart to look for 20D silpoly, which weighs about the same as 20D silnylon (when the nylon is dry).

Also, as I’ve learned, there can be quality issues with any of these materials if there is poor quality control.  All of them can be subject to that.

 

[Sam Farrington]

Monte,

Rereading your posts, I think we have different conceptions of what we seek in a backpacking shelter.  I am looking for a shelter that can be ‘buttoned up’ against severe wind and rain when the weather gets really foul for long periods, as it can at higher and unprotected altitudes.  For me this is not just a comfort issue, although being able to prepare meals, and keep self, gear and companions dry and uncramped in a storm is important.  However, what is most important is safety, when the weather just goes beserk.  It doesn’t always happen, but I want to be prepared for it, if and when it does happen.   And as noted, the risk of that increases the longer I’m out there, and it is the longer trips in backcountry wilderness that I really enjoy, as compared to a night or a few nights out.

Unfortunately, more durable and protective shelter weighs more, and I can sense from other  posts  that lighter weights often carry the day with many.  The popularity of BPL attests to that.   But I don’t think safety on longer trips has to mean crushing weight.  My goal for a solo tent using woven fabrics has been as far below 2 lbs as possible; but shelter weights around 1 lb are clearly popular.  So I think there is an inevitable tension there; but with me, being prepared for the worst is a matter of safety and consideration for companions.  It is a little analogous to how people have responded to the pandemic in very different ways.  I just think we can do better.

 

 

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