Interest register in new outdoor product

"The idea is that you can use this scooter to transport from the train or bus to and from the hiking trail (which is often a substantial road walk) or make the road walk back to your car less painful."

Can anyone here name a trailhead in the western United States that could be accessed by public transportation where this scooter could actually be useful? I cannot. Not day hike, but wilderness.

No securing this thing. So you have to take it with you. This is where the multi functionality comes in, kudos there.

I can buy a car for $800, with gas.

What weight rating are you thinking of? 100 kilos? 150?

Is the deck larger than a Razor scooter? Sized for adult sized feet?

Roads End back to the valley would be an adrenalin filled ride.

How much experimenting and miles/kilometers have you put into this?

Edit: one more question. How far would you travel on one of these?

Ken, there's plenty near NYC. Probably not what you would consider wilderness but you can do weekend trips there. In Cold Spring you have Breakneck Ridge and sections of the AT. A bus takes you up to New Paltz if you're into rock climbing. A train let's you get to Harriman st park and Bear Mountain. Can even take a bus up the the Adirondacks.
Would a scooter be practical for any of these? No. Take a bike and lock it to a tree when you get to the trailhead.
Would the other tools be practical? Not for me. There's a reason I don't bring the bow saw I bought for backpacking with me while backpacking. I did once and dont want to carry the extra weight.
I also couldn't justify that price. I could get a new tent and lighter sleeping bag and have some money left over.

Edit: Ken, apparently I missed the "Western" part of your question…

I've seen more of these contraptions being used by the some younger people for around town transport (normally campuses, … might grow). Might need to adjust your price points and weights though. What kind of weights have you tested it with (successfully)?

I've heard of people driving a car to a trailhead (in the Western U.S. : ) ) with bike, parking car, riding bike to another trailhead and parking it, walking on trail back to their car, and then driving back to pick up the bike.

It doesn't seem like a scooter is all that efficient, but it is more convenient to transport than a bike?

I think riding a bike and locking it at the trailhead is a more practical idea. I cannot see anyone forking over hundreds of dollars for a heavy, multi-use scooter (unless it has an electric motor built in). Maybe $50 max. Have you tried riding this thing over hills on dirt roads for several miles? If transporting a bike is an issue, I would rather pay for a folding bike than for a scooter.

Chained bikes (even "generic" brands) can get stripped or outright stolen though. There are THs that connect to ashalpt* via bus routes in the peripheral Bay Area, Los Angeles (see a Backpacker mag article about bussing to LA THs) and Tucson that I'm aware of, …but you will likely need to do some testing on your own, … blog it. Who knows? Maybe even a Kickstarter once you have more data ….

*subject to the localities traffic laws and whatever safety of course

It seems like you’ve got a solution without a problem. Here’s what needs to be true of a trailhead for this to be useful:

1. Far enough from public transit that walking is a significant pain (at least a few miles)
2. Close enough to public transit that a scooter is practical (kick scooters top out around 10 MPH on a well-maintained flat road, and are literally useless on any significant uphill stretch—it’s easier to walk).
3. Popular enough that it’s unsafe to lock up a bike.

Are there trailheads that meet those conditions? Sure, but not many. I’m probably one of the best candidates—there’s a trailhead 5 miles from my home that probably isn’t a great place to lock up a bike. Problem is, it’s uphill the whole way, about 1000 feet total. As I said, scooters suck going uphill.

And at those prices, most people who can afford that scooter could also afford a private shuttle straight to the trailhead! Keep in mind your competition—the Razor Pro X weighs 6.5 lbs and costs less than $80.

You might do better dropping the “transit to trailhead” pitch, focusing on the off-road capabilities, and positioning this as an type of mixed backcountry transport—something akin to packrafting or bikepacking. If you come up with a scooter that can handle prolonged, somewhat rough trail use yet remain light enough to carry for long stretches, I think you might find a market. People are only willing to pay and carry so much for simple convenience, but they’ll pay a lot more to try a totally new sport.

Maybe we'll see scooters on the JMT soon

I've spent a lot of time on a Kickbike — mostly in town for exercise, some for travel from parking to destination, some for exploring. I think a portable scooter would be wonderful, but a small wheel brakeless model definitely not — too unstable, won't roll well, and would be too exciting coming down hills without brakes.

With a pack on scooting is really hard work. Uphill is really hard work, but downhill with brakes, and with a wheel far enough out ahead to offer stability, is a joy. And any time one wants to link two trail sections with a bit of road, having wheels available would be a nice option. But those little wheels do not roll well and would heat up too much with the brakes a mountain traveler occasionally needs.

Then there is the weight of a helmet. With a full-size size wheeled scooter, a helmet seems less important, but from my experience on gravel, safety 'tis a fine line. Any time the frame rubs the ground, a fall is a real risk and the pack on the back will not help. A pack is best affixed to the scooter in some way.

So I like the scooter idea — but based on a Kickbike design, and with a variable height footpad. Doesn't sound ultralight any more.

Jeremy,

I applaud you for getting creative and making this scooter. I love ingenuity and thoughtful design — the additional uses for your scooter are pretty cool. And it looks pretty cool with all that carbon! So thanks for sharing your creation with us, who knows what it might lead to.

I'd agree with many of the other posters in this thread, however, that your audience will be very small, and the prices you quote will significantly reduce even that audience.

Again, thanks for sharing.

"but a small wheel brakeless model definitely not"

The top two pics seem to show some kind of brake on the front wheel.

.

Congratulations Jeremy, I think it's a great idea and can be a good tool for long trips with packrafts. The problem may be the weight and price but it could work. You have to go on.
We have shared it on http://www.planetpackraft.com.
Thanks you

This thread gets me thinking about multi use gear.

I wonder if there could be a pole(s) created that could be used as a paddle for packrafting, a pole for trekking, tent pole to keep your shelter up, frame for your pack, ect…. It would just need a few adapters to accommodate all.

Hi Guys,
Thanks for such thorough feedback, lots of valuable contributions! Some responses…

“Can anyone here name a trailhead in the Western United States that could be accessed by public transportation where this scooter could actually be useful?”

This is good to know. I have unfortunately never been to the US (hoping to go this June!), but below are some maps of trips in OZ, NZ and Italy where I would have found it useful (all images courtesy of Google Maps). I would have also found it really useful on tracks like the Great North Walk and Bicential Trail which cut between dirt access roads and hiking trails.

“I can buy a car with gas for $800”

It is true, at the moment this device is expensive. I am doing what I can to reduce the price within a reasonable weight range but whilst starting out with low volumes this will be difficult. It is also targeted at a fairly small range of people, those who probably already own packrafts, paragliders, mountainbikes etc.
Finally, cars and fuel are very expensive in many parts of the world and are also carbon intensive, so where there is a reliable bus/ train network, this thing would save a good deal of money/ CO2 emissions.

“What is weight rating are you thinking of”

Preliminarily at 120kgs – giving an average large man (90kg), 30kgs of extra luggage. I could potentially make both lighter and heavier versions though.
“Is the deck larger than a razor scooter”

Yes, wider and longer.

"Roads End back to the valley would be an adrenalin filled ride”

That is the idea! To make road bashes accessible and fun, in the same way packrafts made river crossings and floats accessible and fun.

“How much experimenting and miles/kilometers have you put on this?"

The earlier prototypes were pretty crude beasts and they worked fine in the city and on dirt trails, but were fairly bulky and heavy. They worked fine, but certainly weren’t elegant. Once this prototype (the first to utilize CAD) is finished I will be out as much as possible!

“How far would you travel on one of these?”

My normal road bash (walking) is between 10 – 30km, with an average around 15km. I reckon 30km would be fine (This was a section of a thru hike), but I assume, most would be in the 10 – 20km range?

“Would a scooter be practical for any of these? No. Take a bike and lock it to a tree when you get to the trailhead”

Bikes are great; fast, fun and all terrain. Their problem however is that they are heavy and bulky. Transporting a bicycle on many public transport systems (e.g. public buses), is often very difficult, while a scooter can break apart and easily be stored in an overhead luggage compartment (or a small bag). Locking your bicycle to a tree also locks you to coming out of that same exit for the return trip.

There are a bunch of really exciting outdoors trips where you can enter via one entrance and then hike or packraft some distance before popping out of another exit on a different transport line (see pics for some ideas). Alternatively, it can be useful for connecting trails on longer tips.

“Would the other tools be practical? Not for me… I also couldn’t justify the price… I could get a new tent and lighter sleeping bag and have some money left over”

This is good feedback. Which tools would be useful? Just the hiking poles? Seat?
My original idea was to bundle enough products together that is became a fairly affordable package.
E.g.
Full carbon WW paddle = $500+
Carbon tripod = $200+
Carbon hiking poles = $100+
Carbon hiking trolley = $500+

If however you will never use these items, the value will not be there. I can see that in its current form this scooter is only likely to appeal to a small subset of people, maybe 0.1%, of hikers but if I can find 50 or 100 people globally it may be worth doing an initial run (and I can modify them from there). For example if you are an adventurer with 3 tents and 3 sleeping bags, you may be looking for some new equipment.

“It doesn’t seem like a scooter is all that efficient. But it is more convenient to transport than a bike?"

Exactly right. Not as efficient, but far easier to transport and far lighter to carry. Two ideas for the future are also adding some pedals and an electric motor, but these (especially the second option are still a way off).

“I would rather pay for a folding bike than a scooter”

Hmm, more good feedback. Would anyone be keen on a seatless bicycle? The lightest folding bicycle I could find on the market was far far heavier than 3 pounds and would be difficult to lug with you on long trips.

“blog it. Who knows? Maybe even a kickstarter once you have more data”

Exactly! The next stage of the plan is to produce 10 – 20 and send them out to testers around the world to see how well they work in different environments. If this goes well, I will feed the changes into a final production model. Just while the idea is new and the design is easily changed I am getting as much feedback as possible from potential users (you guys)

“If you come up with a scooter that can handle prolonged, somewhat rough trail use yet remain light enough to carry for long stretches, I think you might find a market. People are only willing to pay and carry so much for simple convenience, but they'll pay a lot more to try a totally new sport”

This is exactly what I am going for. There is no chance I can ever compete on price with mass produced metal razor scooters, however the idea is, that this will be able to cop much more of a beating, open up new adventures and be light enough to carry in a bag.

“down hills without brakes.”

The current model will have front disc brakes and a rear pressure brake. The idea behind the disc brakes being that you can run a bunch of different sized wheels on the same fork.

“Uphill is really hard work”

This is one of the big downers of a scooter. Generally on uphills I jump off, put my bag on the front and push it up, which at least saves me carrying the bag, but is not ideal.

“variable height footpad”

This one can run a bunch of wheel heights, by utilizing dropouts (which connect the rear wheel to the frame), which both have multiple mounting positions and which can rotate. This allows you to quickly spin them round and raise the deck height substantially when you need a lot of clearance.

“your audience will be very small, and the prices you quote will significantly reduce even that audience”

Indeed, I am thinking the same thing for the first ones at least. The idea is to start small and hopefully keep on adjusting the idea until there is a larger audience. Maybe try and make an ultralight bike or electric scooter instead?

“We have shared it on http://www.planetpackraft.com”

Thanks Ivan!!

“I wonder if there could be a pole(s) created that could be used as a paddle for packrafting, a pole for trekking, tent pole to keep your shelter up, frame for your pack”

All of these (minus the pack frame) are already part of the scooter  I am going to publish the designs so you can make/ 3d print more connectors, but other tool suggestions could be: fishing rod, bow, trail maintenance tools and ski scooter.

Thanks again for all the contributions. Keep them coming!
Jeremy.

Impressive answers. I think it would be a good idea to be a familiar tool because when you travel with children you should carry much weight. A trolley to carry the backpack is good but I think it would be a good idea if you can also sit your child.

Thanks Jeremy

Remember, we're ultralight BPers here, so we don't have much weight to carry, we like to hike, abhor adding more weight, and most are cheap bastards.

I look at what you've developed and it reminds me of ideas I've had about hauling caribou out of Adak Island (far out the Aleutians in Alaska). I've imagined tubular aluminum from old crutches running from a hip belt to a small, inflatable wheel with the load mostly on the wheel. There are rough roads remaining from Navy days and since we're allowed 5 'bou each, it can a lot of trips/weight.

A market you might looked is pilots. They are used to spending money and often have the problem of getting from a small airport into town. They are very weight and space conscious. There are folding bikes sold for that market – Google those. USA pilots could be a market, and not anywhere else I can think of.

Whereas in Europe, you have a 109 year history of taking a train to the top of a valley and kayaking back down the river – the origins of the original Kleppemr folding kayak. But you are also competing with the greater ease of hitch hiking to the trailhead.

I think Europe could be a good solution, because many long routes (GR Footpaths) pass by paved roads, for example:
http://hikinginfinland.com/2015/01/hogakustenleden-the-high-coast-trail.html

They could make trips like this:
https://vimeo.com/25651152

Cheers

“you travel with children you should carry much weight. A trolley to carry the backpack is good but I think it would be a good idea if you can also sit your child.”

That is a great idea and one I had never considered. Will have to do a little bit of thinking about that application.

“Remember, we're ultralight BPers here, so we don't have much weight to carry, we like to hike, abhor adding more weight, and most are cheap bastards”

This is an excellent point David and I used to fit this category like a glove! Three of my big 4 are still Zpacks (tent, sleeping bag, pack) but since tripling my weight with an Alpacka and related paddling equipment I am more willing to add a couple more grams. Hopefully one of my models will eventually appeal to BPL’ers (a 2lb scooter?), but maybe not so much this one. Still great to get such good feedback!

“I think Europe could be a good solution, because many long routes (GR Footpaths) pass by paved roads, for example:
http://hikinginfinland.com/2015/01/hogakustenleden-the-high-coast-trail.html

They could make trips like this:
https://vimeo.com/25651152”

Those are some great links Ivan! Indeed, part of my inspiration came from the GR131 on Tenerife, possibly close to your location? (http://adventuresandtinkerings.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/gr-131-photoblog.html)

Clever!

My first impression is that I can buy a very decent folding bike in that price range and get far more range and speed for the price.

For $1000, it should dispense Ben and Jerry's ice cream and tuck me in at night :)

For $1000, it should dispense Ben and Jerry's ice cream and tuck me in at night :)

Dale: turn off ad blocker- what you are looking for is available in Asian or Russian flavors. Prolly more than $1000 though.

Hi Jeremy I'm freaking out you did the GR131, and you took a picture of Bajamar,
the village where I just leave!.
I published my route when I did the GR131 http://es.wikiloc.com/wikiloc/view.do?id=957259

"and you took a picture of Bajamar, the village where I just leave!"

Haha, what a small world. You are a lucky man to live in such a beautiful place!!