Old Guys Backpacking

Yes, as Doug and Lori pointed out there are many hammock/bug net options available beyond REI. My local REI here in Southern California only carries ENO brand hammocks which tend to be a little heavy. There is a learning curve with the various type of hammock configurations. I've spent hours researching so I could configure a kit that suits me and I'm sure I'll evolve through different systems until I get it dialed in. Tweaking and testing gear is an enjoyable pursuit for me. Hammock forums is a valuable resource to help you along the way. I now have three hammocks ( one which has an integrated bug net), a removable bug net I made myself, and a full coverage tarp with doors (Warbonnet Superfly).I plan to upgrade to a cuben fiber tarp with doors for further weight savings in the future. I've had to learn about lighter suspension, tree straps, ridge lines, fasteners, etc. My current shelter weight (hammock, tarp, suspension) is just under 3lbs. This is 1lb heavier than my previous tent but I consider the comfort and increased site selection options to be well worth the penalty. Snakes? Make sure you check the ground and your overhead lines before exiting a hammock : o

ENO hammocks themselves are not heavy, but some of the gear goes with them is e.g. the thick nylon rope used at the ends (which can easily be swapped out), the tree straps, etc, are heavy, but the hammock body itself is fairly light.

Thankfully they replaced the heavy steel carabiners with some lightweight aluminum ones.

I bought an ENO hammock a little while ago. It will need to be modded some before being a good hammock, but overall i think it's a good value especially if you're willing to mod some.

http://www.livescience.com/36241-5-experts-answer-running-bad-knees.html

In the levels of evidence that we look at, meta-analyses are the top of the evidence ladder, and after many rungs "expert opinion" is at the very bottom.

This is "expert opinion," and if you noticed everyone had a different opinion. Every single randomized controlled trial about the development of osteoarthritis in the running community over the past 30 years, including some rather long longitudinal studies, has NOT found any link at all between the two.

Miller RH, et al.Why don't most runners get knee osteoarthritis? A case for per-unit-distance loads. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2014 Mar;46(3):572-9. "Conclusions: Compared with walking, the relatively short duration of ground contact and relatively long length of strides in running seem to blunt the effect of high peak joint loads, such that the PUD loads are no higher than that in walking. Waveform features other than or in addition to the peak value should be considered when studying joint loading and injuries."

Hansen P1, English M, Willick SE. Does running cause osteoarthritis in the hip or knee? PM R. 2012 May;4(5 Suppl):S117-21.
Abstract
Running is an excellent activity to promote general health and well-being. However, running injuries are common, and concern is sometimes raised that running might lead to osteoarthritis in weight-bearing joints. This article reviews the relevant in vitro and in vivo literature that looks at possible associations between running and the development of osteoarthritis. Also reviewed is the limited literature on running barefoot and with minimalist footwear. Low- and moderate-volume runners appear to have no more risk of developing osteoarthritis than nonrunners. The existing literature is inconclusive about a possible association between high-volume running and the development of osteoarthritis. The early literature on running barefoot and running with minimalist footwear has primarily focused on biomechanics but has not yet focused on any effect on cartilage health. Experienced and beginner runners should be encouraged to allow the body adequate time to adapt to changes in gait biomechanics caused by changing footwear, which can be done by slowly increasing running mileage in the new footwear. Clinicians can improve the health of runners by encouraging appropriate treatment of musculoskeletal injuries, encouraging maintenance of an optimal body mass index, and correcting gait abnormalities caused by deficits in flexibility, strength, or motor control along the kinetic chain.

thank you Jennifer.

(OK, i'm not an old guy. but I've been thinking about taking up running to boost my fitness level. This puts my concerns about possible harm to rest.)

Man was made to walk and run efficiently. We are an endurance runner species, adapted for high heat, low humidity (thus the sweating to keep cool). No other animal sweats like humans, nor has a foot like humans, and only dogs and maybe horses can outrun us. Deer can only outrun us because they get lost in the trees and get out of sight. Personally I have run down jack rabbits in the desert. They are not endurance runners.

Man was also made to die at age 35. Its a hard life on the Savannah.

Running builds stronger bones with more mass, from the impact. So does walking.

My own personal anecdote is consistent with my buddy who is a physical therapist. Its his advice to clients that running is destructive and they should stop doing it, that my opinion is based on. His opinion is informed from his observation of many patients over his career. He is a mountaineer, backpacker, climbed the Nose of El Cap, hiked the JMT, and is a martial arts master. He is a physically active guy, and sees physically active patients. His observations are consistent with what I have observed in many friends and acquaintances. Between arthritis, hip issues, knees, knee caps, ankle, feet, and back, there are a lot of things to be injured from stress and or overuse. As a back impaired person, I'd advise people to never lift a sofa or a refrigerator, even though you can. As a shoulder impaired person, I'd advise people to never fall forward over handlebars on a bike, and never to bust a door down with your shoulder, and when its super icey, don't do downill skiing. I'd also tell kids not to play high school football, and not to get a trampauline. But more than anything, I'd say there are other ways to get aerobically fit than running. FYI, its not fiction, its opinion. Everybody's got one (an opinion).

Bob, I'm a PT as well. I'm also a marathoner, adventure racer, former road racing cyclist, and hiker…and currently I'm about 50 pounds overweight. I have to say my current state is far more hazardous to my body than at any time during my hard core training years.

Anecdotes are just that: anecdotes. That's why we have randomized controlled trials, and reviews of published randomized controlled trials to see what all that hard data tells us. And the fact is that running in and of itself does NOT cause osteoarthritis. AT ALL. There is literally NO difference in prevalence of OA in runners vs non-runners. I will tell you there IS a causal relationship between obesity and knee OA, and obesity/sedentary lifestyles and lumbar OA. There is NOT even a statistical relationship between running and any form of OA.

Just because your PT friend thinks that "runners get OA" doesn't make it so.

"My own personal anecdote is consistent with my buddy who is a physical therapist. Its his advice to clients that running is destructive and they should stop doing it, that my opinion is based on."

My own personal anecdote is that I ran for 23 years, 8 of those years really hard, another 10 years what most folks would call hard, and 5 more moderately, with not a hint of OA. Nor did I hear of any OA in the many runners of all levels I ran with, against, and recreationally. Lots of soft tissue injuries, including the one that ended my running life, but no OA. Nor did any PT or physiatrist who treated me for various and sundry issues ever warn me that running was destructive or would lead to OA, with the exception of a physiatrist I trusted completely. That was when I was 60
and suffering from a debilitating case of trochanteric bursitis. He told me that he could get me back to running, but that if I wanted to increase my chances of a long life in the mountains, it would be wise to hang up my running shoes. It was a case of too many hard miles, with the wear and tear that comes with them. Entropy in a pair of running flats. But never a word about OA. I took his advice and here I am, still going strong at 74. What I found was that there are other ways to achieve the fitness required to do the kinds of trips I love. But all of this is just another anecdote. The kinds of studies Jennifer cites are the gold standard for drawing any definitive conclusions. As a famous BPLer, whose name is lost to me, once said: "Opinions are like a certain orifice, everybody has one." Same goes for anecdotes, IMO. ;0)

"The kinds of studies Jennifer cites are the gold standard for drawing any definitive conclusions."

They may be the gold standard for drawing definitive conclusions about what is probable, but not about what is certain. Since we are each unique, and depend on more factors than science comes even close to grasping, what is going to happen to each of us, aside from death, is uncertain. After considering the probabilities that science has to offer (assuming your health advisor is not a quack like many are), the best evidence comes from listening intently to our own individual bodies. Without that, emphasis on generalizations is pure intellectual hubris. I'm with Roger and the black swans. Are you sure they are swans though, Roger? What if they are mutated long necked ducks.

"They may be the gold standard for drawing definitive conclusions about what is probable, but not about what is certain."

Isn't that what statistics is all about? It can give you an idea of what the likely outcome will be for most people. The outcome for each individual is obviously another matter. Some will vary from the statistically likely outcome, but most will fall within the predicted range, assuming the statistician got it right in the first place(garbage in, garbage out). As you said, nothing is certain in this life, beyond the proverbial death and taxes and, regarding running, I said as much in an earlier post.

Tom,
What is statistically likely, or falls within predicted ranges, can and often does change completely and unexpectedly due to factors as yet undiscovered. Part of that is because mere empiricism does not provide an understanding of process, and our human understanding of process is primitive at best.

What I'm rebelling against are unhelpful habits of thinking on this site, such as those well described by Dr. Jerome Groopman, and the tendency to want to pigeonhole everything into one's own viewpoint. It is not helpful, really, and retards any meaningful communication about anything, including growing old, running, etc.

And to be completely frank, it is because a my herniated disc is acting up again, and nothing can strike terror into an avid SUL backpacker like sciatica.

"What is statistically likely, or falls within predicted ranges, can and often does change completely and unexpectedly due to factors as yet undiscovered. Part of that is because mere empiricism does not provide an understanding of process, and our human understanding of process is primitive at best."

Agreed, but it is generally an evolutionary process, occasionally interrupted by a breakthrough discovery that changes the game. The studies showing that there is no association between running have been ongoing for several decades now with no change, and are the best information we have at this point in time to assess the risk. Statistics can't explain, but it can illuminate correlations that lead to research that lead to explanations. Statistics is a data driven predictive tool, no more, no less.

"What I'm rebelling against are unhelpful habits of thinking on this site, such as those well described by Dr. Jerome Groopman, and the tendency to want to pigeonhole everything into one's own viewpoint."

I would agree with you on this. It is why I posted as I did originally about individual variation. Still, studies such as those Jennifer mentioned are useful in assessing the general risk of developing OA from running, and may be useful for an individual who is considering taking up running, but has been discouraged by personal anecdotes or pop magazine quackery warning of OA if they take the plunge. They might also be useful to sports medicine professionals when counseling patients about the risks inherent in running.

"It is not helpful, really, and retards any meaningful communication about anything, including growing old, running, etc."

Actually, I think Bob Shaver's post ignited a quite lively and useful conversation. all sorts of folks have jumped in with their opinions, anecdotes, experience, etc. I have quite enjoyed it so far.

"And to be completely frank, it is because a my herniated disc is acting up again, and nothing can strike terror into an avid SUL backpacker like sciatica."

And be honest now, Samuel; doesn't your sciatica feel just a little bit better for having joined the fray? ;0))

> Are you sure they are swans though, Roger? What if they are mutated long necked ducks.
Then an awful lot of people are awful mistaken – today.

Cheers

"And the fact is that running in and of itself does NOT cause osteoarthritis. AT ALL. There is literally NO difference in prevalence of OA in runners vs non-runners. I will tell you there IS a causal relationship between obesity and knee OA, and obesity/sedentary lifestyles and lumbar OA. There is NOT even a statistical relationship between running and any form of OA."

And osteoarthritis is the only injury knees can sustain? (No, you didn't say that, but I think you and Bob are arguing mostly about different things.) There are far too many books, websites, support groups, self-help resources, and…anecdotes devoted to runners' knee problems to dismiss the notion that running can mess up your knees. I gave up running in favor of other kinds of workouts to get away from the incredibly repetitive stresses it involves.

Mind you, I've played basketball three times a week, year 'round, on an outdoor (aka concrete) court for the last 25+ years, so I'm not some whiny wimp avoiding impact on my body. But I had more structural issues as a jogging college kid than I do now in my mid-50s. So I'm with Bob–there are better ways for (most) humans to stay in shape. :-)

In '97 I herniated my L4 and L5 discs. The radiologist described it as "Moderately large herniation…"

My physical therapist saved me from the knife but said "NO MORE RUNNING" due to the vertical impact stress on my discs.
Sooo, I have accommodated to that restriction by doing training hikes with a 30 to 35 lb. FRAMED backpack that transfers the load to my hips.
Because of my condition and predilection for framed packs I use ONLY packs with frames for loads over 10 lbs.

Plus I get a frame one size larger than recommended for "normal" people so the shoulder straps cannot wrap around my shoulder and down my back as this would cause more pressure on my spine.
EX. I'm 5' 10", a candidate for Medium frames in most backpacks but my new Osprey EXOS 58 is size L so I can avoid the"shoulder wrap" situation and thus put over 80% of the pack's weight on my hips. My shoulders are mainly for keeping the pack from falling backwards.

In the words on my current physical therapist, "We have to learn how to accommodate to injuries and train around them."
"…train around them." has been my mantra since `1997, and this is what I'm hearing on this thread from fellow geezers with injuries.

We will hike until were have to be hauled off the trail!

"We will hike until we have to be hauled off the trail!"

I bet everyone on here gets that.

Tom,
Touche.

Eric,
I tried a lumbar pad to keep the pack from sliding down and taking the weight off the hips. (Posted a photo once, but can't find it.) The pad worked fine, but was worried about the pressure on the L4-L5. So am going to remove the pad, and replace the Osprey Iso belt with a REI belt that has only a 4-5" opening between the thick belt pads at the small of the back. The 4-5" bridge is hoped to take all pressure of the L4-L5 area but not allow as much slippage as the Osprey did with much more space between the pads at the back. When the lumbar pad is off and the REI belt installed, and if it works, I'll post a photo with a short thread on MYOG.

Roger,
Maybe they're mutated geese. The regular ones around here are mean and ugly.

> The regular ones around here are mean and ugly.
Geese … or BPL members … or certain Republican Senators?

"Tom,
Touche." :) All in good fun in this season of CHAFF and folly. My karmic reward shall likely be in the form of a black swan flying overhead on his way to the FORUM and depositing a load on my bald pate.

Be sure it is not a drone like one of those in the world's longest BPL thread.
Anything they drop is likely to have a warhead on it or depleted uranium something or other.

Roger, How can you be sure that BPL members and Republican Senators are mutually exclusive groups? There could be a few of the latter lurking about. Plus you could get accused of trolling again.

"Be sure it is not a drone like one of those in the world's longest BPL thread."

Now Samuel, you know and I know my drone sleeps alone. It's out on its own forever.

Not only that, it's programmed to work hard, it's never profane, it might drive folks insane, but what ever…..

Crapola… I have been running for 50 years and now you are telling me I am going to get OA? When will this happen and how will I know I have it?

> I have been running for 50 years and now you are telling me I am going to get OA?
> When will this happen and how will I know I have it?
It should happen in about 50-60 years from now. You will know when it happens because your joints will get very stiff.

Cheers

> How can you be sure that BPL members and Republican Senators are mutually exclusive groups?
Backpacking requires a degree of realism and intelligence.

> you could get accused of trolling again.
'Again'? When was the first time???
I deny everything.

Cheers

I am very interested in the OA topic. I have A LOT of OA in my family, A LOT. It is my single biggest fear growing old. I am 54 and started running 2 years ago. I have had a desk job my whole life so I figure I have "saved up" a little wear and tear. So far I have no additional pain issues. I do have constant sciatica, but had it before I started running. Running seems to have no effect either way.

Can anyone suggest warning signs to look out for? Any suggestions for a mild runner (9.5 minute miles, 3 miles 5 times a week) with a family history of severe OA? Thanks.