Why don’t manfucaturers list the fill wieght of down jackets?

even if they did you couldn't trust what they list it at… and no way to verify it.

I mean… they list the fill weight in sleeping bags, but how do you know if they are accurate or not? And the total weight listed for sleeping bags is often wrong…

billy

marketing

the jacket they sell must have the secret mojo and facts just get in the way

imagine a world where folks compared down fill and figured out that a MEC down jacket had more down than a brand $$$$$ jacket double the price

that said fill weight and fill power is only a variable in what determines the "warmth" of a jacket …

;)

The same reason gear manufacturers obfuscate nearly all their performance specs: if you could directly compare between manufacturers, the one with the best specs would sell and every other manufacturer would suffer. They'd much rather let their marketing departments duke it out. This is why you see so many proprietary fabrics and membranes (H2No, DryQ, etc.) with very little publicly available data that are all in fact sourced from the same 2-3 fabric mills. They sell them based on marketing, not on performance.

del

because they are manfucaturers

I never even got a chance to say 'marketing spin'…
:-)

Cheers

What they ^ said.

Though, personally, if a company declines to give me specs associated with their product, I'd vote with my wallet and go elsewhere while letting their customer service department know the reason (politely, I might add) for my choice. Perhaps it might make a dent in the thought process behind the choices made by their customer service department. Probably not, but sixty seconds of my time to write an e-mail isn't too high a price to pay for the possibility…

It's frustrating. It's the most important number for a down jacket and yet it cannot be found. When I got my Feathered Friends down parka they had the down weight listed right off—15 ounces. Most companies don't, esp with the puffy jackets so popular nowadays.

Here's another peeve—tent makers do not list their floor and fly deniers. I guess when you have 20 deniers floors and 15 denier flys you don't want to advertise it.

I won't buy gear from makers who don't list these numbers.

"When I got my Feathered Friends down parka they had the down weight listed right off—15 ounces."

Yea… mine too. But it made not difference in the end because the entire jacket weighed 20% more than the spec the offered and there was no way to know if that more down or more fabric weight…

I find that by far most gear weighs more than advertised… seldom the same as advertised and almost never less.

billy

Well, I have a Powerstretch-baselayer that is twice the weight that was advertised. Luckily, it does its job. :-)

Moat companies give their garment and fill
weights for a medium.

"Most companies give their garment and fill
weights for a medium."

Down fill quality and down weight are two different things. Most companies DO NOT list their down weight for jackets. See

http://www.rei.com/product/871691/mountain-hardwear-micro-ratio-down-jacket-mens#tab-specs

http://www.rei.com/product/871935/sierra-designs-dridown-baffled-down-jacket-mens#tab-description

http://www.rei.com/product/871414/patagonia-down-sweater-hoodie-mens#tab-description

http://www.thenorthface.com/catalog/sc-gear/women-8217-s-greenland-down-jacket.html?variationId=MU7&variationName=SHINY%20TNF%20BLACK

http://marmot.com/products/details/womens-hailey-jacket

You'll see plenty of numbers but not the most important number—How many ounces of down in each jacket. NOT fill power.

Tipi,

Most of the companies I have ever purchased down
kit from have listed fill weight, except for PHD in the Uk.

Never purchased down kit from any of those companies you mention (but have purchased other kit from them)

Off the top of my head.

WM
FF
Rab
Montane
Montbell
Patagonia
Mountain Equipment
Crux

At least for sleeping bags, I have the workbooks (for Europe) of MHW and TNF (and some of Marmot) that do list fillweight.

fill weights, on their own mean nothing. It is very hard to compare across brands. You would need ACCURATE fill weights + fill power, otherwise the numbers are meaningless. Even then, you only have minimal information. You really need standardized loft measurements (good luck with that!) as well.

I think fill weights have always meant something. I remember reading a mountaineering book several years ago and the author talked about adequate down bags for winter climbing. He said that goose down bags with 35 ozs or more of down traditionally would be considered "mountaineering bags". This was back in the 550 days.

To say fill weights are unimportant is just plain wrong. If they were wrong, no one would get 4oz down overfills in their bags or jackets etc.

When Western Mountaineering puts out a bag they use excellent fill power and make a point of listing the weight of the down in each bag. My current winter bag is the Puma and the number is important and clearly listed. See—

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=Microfiber%20Series&ContentId=43

Valandre probably makes some of the best down bags ever and they have no problem listing their fill power and their down weight—

http://www.valandre.com/eng/Sleeping_Bags_and_Outerwear/sleeping_bags/shockingblue.html

I think any system is imperfect.

To me, down weight&FP vs bag weight is useful because it speaks to a bag's efficiency (insulation:packaging). Down weight alone kind of describes it's warming power. The same amount of down in a smaller or larger bag will affect how well the bag warms.

For warmth I want an idea (not necessarily exact) of how thick an item is. Loft cuts across the problems of Fill Power, weight, volume and materials. Two inches of Primaloft are as warm as 2 inches of 650FP down or, 900FP down. The actual weight varies.

Loft is the data point that can be used to compare items that claim to have the same warming power.

Of course, the problem is finding a standard method of measuring this. Skinfold Calipers anyone?

http://www.valandre.com

Oops, I see now that Tipi mentioned that.

One feature that I really like about the Valandre jackets is that the baffles or chambers in his new models, the Moulin Rouge and the Immelman G2 are such that the down does not shift. Niels is a real nit-picker when it comes to that.

DISCLOSURE: I am an authorized Valandre dealer.

"Two inches of Primaloft are as warm as 2 inches of 650FP down or, 900FP down. The actual weight varies."

I'm not sure this is absolutely true. The 2 inches of down, is likely trapping/stilling more air than the 2 inches of Primaloft.

This is because of the unusual nature of down, and the many, many super fine fibrils. Basically, the finer the fibers and structure involved, the more air it can still per given volume.

This concept also applies to more garment and non puffy type insulation. If you have a super fine merino wool sweater that is the same thickness as a super coarse old school wool sweater, the former will be a bit more insulating because the finer fibers of the former trap/still more air per given thickness.

The problem with synthetics is that while you can make super fine microfibers, if you do it as loose fill, because there is not the inherent structure involved as with goose down, they will degrade faster.

To increase durability for synthetics, you can do what Climashield does with Apex (or any continuous filament type insulation), but to weave/spin the fiber then, you need a thicker fiber, which increases weight and decreases insulation potential a bit (however, because you don't need to quilt it, that helps some).

Anyways, i may be wrong, but i doubt that 2 inches of Primaloft equates to the same insulation potential as 2 inches of good quality down.

Basically, the finer the fibers and structure involved, the more air it can still per given volume.

I see your point Justin. If you are correct then 2 inches of 900FP down is warmer than 650FP as there'd be more fiber instead of dead air.

Honestly though, I think this is splitting fibers. :)

In the field, considering all the other variables that affect warmth, I think 2 inches of insulation will feel about the same across materials. Bulk and weight are the differentiating factors.

I think there are a decent number of companies that do list their fill weights, but of course not all. That said, while marketing spin may be some of it, I think at least part of it is simply not wanting to actually confuse normal customers. Most readers at BPL are much more informed about this stuff than the general public, so while we look for that info (and are frustrated when we don't find it), most people either 1. never notice that it's not available, or 2. find it and get frustrated and confused that all this unfamiliar lingo is at work (which, ironically can end up looking like marketing spin to someone who doesn't understand it).

"I see your point Justin. If you are correct then 2 inches of 900FP down is warmer than 650FP as there'd be more fiber instead of dead air."

Under more ideal conditions, yes, likely so. But under more normal conditions, especially with any humidity that 900FP down will collapse more than the 650 down which has more feathers which help to keep it lofted.

Some say that the only reason why we have 900fp down now, is because American labs decided to change the testing conditions for down to make it look better, and that they test under ridiculous conditions.

Btw, for small items that you don't need to compress much, i recommend Kapok fiber, which is super cheap. It's been tested to be about as insulating as lower quality duck down per similar weight/volume, but it has the added benefit of being less compressible (keeps its loft better) and practically impervious to moisture.

So much so, that for awhile it was used as fill material for life jackets and the like. Yes, a hat or mitt filled with this will float. The fibers are sealed hollow type with a thick coating of durable wax.

I wouldn't use it for larger items, because it doesn't compress down as much as down, or even high quality synthetic insulation.

This discussion reminded me of when I went to
purchase an REI sleeping bag for my wife, the Lady in the sleeping
bag section did not have a clue on
how fill weights or fill power worked.

Or hearing a staffmember tell to other clients things that were just … plain wrong (to say it politely). :-)