A new Silnylon available – 1.05oz/yd

[Nick Smolinske]

So I ordered some of the new membrane silpoly and started to put together a new mid yesterday afternoon. Here are my first impressions: It's quite thin indeed, although that's what I expected given the weight. I gave it a poke test by stretching it tightly over a closed set of needle-nosed pliers (to simulate a blunt stick) and it broke pretty easily. But then I did a control test with 30d silnylon and that broke nearly as easily. Given that I've used a mid made from that silnylon for quite some time with no issues, I think it'll be ok if properly constructed. The fabric is a joy to work with – the reduced stretch of poly versus nylon is definitely noticeable when sewing it together, and also when trying to lay it flat to cut. I was able to cut all the panels in about 45 minutes using rotary cutters and cat-curve templates. I put the zipper on in about 15 minutes. Both those tasks were easier than with stretchy silnylon, particularly sewing the zipper (no pins were used). I also put the panels together yesterday (I cut a bottom trapezoid and a top triangle and I put them together to get each side of the mid). I used a flat-felled seam with 3 lines of stitching, which seems sufficient. Once I coat it with seam grip it should get some extra strength. I am going to install some load-spreading circles on the tie-outs for this one too. I got the olive yellow color and I have to say it's relatively transparent, which is common with light-colored fabrics of this size. I might end up putting this one on gear swap and getting a darker color for more privacy – we'll see how I feel after testing it. My silnylon also seemed transparent when pressed flat against a sewing machine, but wasn't bad in actual use. Photos will come whenever I get the chance, maybe in November after I test the mid on a backpacking trip.

[Sam Farrington]

Nick, Your post got me to revisit the RBTR site and see that it plainly states that the membrane PU2000 is a 15D polyester. Wasn't sure before whether the 'poly' referred to the polyurethane half of the coating, or the fabric itself. That is good news, because if experience with other polyesters is any guide, it spells the end of sagging. The end of sagging, while retaining the benefits of bias stretch in a woven fabric is a big step forward IMO, because the tent can stretch a little before forced to tear. Agree that only time will tell for sure if the fabric is strong enough for general backpacking use. Thank you for your post. The greater ease of cutting and sewing is extremely good news also. P.S. Now we will probably see threads titled, "IS SILNYLON DEAD?" or some such, countered by photos of silpoly shredded by devices resembling the jaws of life.

[Nick Smolinske]

I just got back from a trip to Grand Staircase/Escalante, where we were fortunate enough to have two very rainy nights to test out the mid (and one windy morning). Here is a photo of the mid the morning after one heavy rainstorm. It was pitched dry and the rain started early in the night and lasted until the morning. It was heavy enough to completely saturate the tent, so I expected to have to adjust guylines at some point. However, when I went out during the night and in the morning, there was no adjustment to be done. This is a huge improvement over my previous silnylon mid, where the sides would sag in towards me during a rainy night. The next wet night was followed by a windy morning. I left the tent up with the doors open to dry out in the wind, and also to test the fabric's strength. It seemed pretty good, although this is obviously not a very scientific test. It also didn't test the tear strength of the fabric, which is probably the more important factor in durability. To reduce the likelihood of holes and rips, I think I will use a small stuff sack with this tent, rather than shoving it bare in the mesh pocket of my backpack. Lastly, my previous concerns about privacy were unfounded – the tent is pretty opaque in real-world conditions. I think I'll be buying a roll of this soon and making mids and bikepacking tarps. First I'm going to make a mid out of the 1.25oz silpoly for comparison, and also to test caternary curves. On the second night with the mid, it seemed like I couldn't get the sides taught, even though the guylines and ridgelines were extremely tight. I think this was due to insufficient cat curves (I used 1.5" on the ridges and 2" on the perimeter).

[J-L]

That looks well done, Nick! What's it weigh? I made a dome tent using 1.25oz silpoly. No sagging at all, even after cold overnight rains. It's awesome stuff. I plan on making another one using Sil Membrane once I get a chance to use the fabric myself.

[Nick Smolinske]

Weight is 20.5oz, including guylines. I didn't get the chance to weigh it without them on. But given that I used about 45 feet of 3mm Lawson Glowire that should've added 3.5 oz, so I imagine the weight without guylines is 17oz – pretty impressive! I will probably stick to 3mm wire for the corner stakes (used with LineLoc3 adjusters), but switch to 2mm for the intermediate tieouts. The 3mm is a bit overkill there.

[Sam Farrington]

Re: "On the second night with the mid, it seemed like I couldn't get the sides taught [sic], even though the guylines and ridgelines were extremely tight." Nick, Looked at your mid above, and also pictured on the slightly older "Half a Catenary Curve," thread. Did not find any note about how you plotted the catenary curves: 1) Using a spreadsheet to plot points and connecting the dots; 2) Using a flexed tent tube uniform through out its entire length (Jordo's method); or 3) Using some other approach. After going almost brain dead plotting UTM coordinates on USGS quads to map trails without SHP software, I can see how it would be easy to get a portion of the curve wrong with a spreadsheet. Jordo's photo on the other thread looks good, but the low definition photos posted on these threads don't always show wrinkles. I do think your difficulty getting your mid taut is related to the accuracy of the catenary curves running from the peak of the mid to the bottom corners. You might try Jordo's method to put the curves on the fabric. I don't think you should overdo the curves, as that will greatly reduce interior space with very little payoff in terms of stability. Look at the photos of cuben mids in Ryan Jordan's article about a trip to the Uintas. (You might need to upgrade your membership to do that). There are no radical catenary cuts on the mids and they appear to be doing fine on high altitude terrain unprotected by forest or crags. In my earlier attempts, it has always been not getting the catenary curve right that has been the cause of wrinkles, no matter how tight the corners are pegged out. On one early attempt, I fiddled with the curve endlessly, then kept making the curve more and more radical, but the wrinkles just got worse. These days, I will use Jordo's methods to trace the catenary curve on each of the two tent walls to be joined from the peak to the ground, and then pin (using very fine pins) the walls together along the curves in order to see if the canopy is fully taut when the bottom corners are pulled tight. If it works, then the seam will be sewn. If not, then it's back to the drawing boards and maybe spending more time with the spreadsheets. And reading old threads and posts from Lance Marshall and others. Or I could just try to tailor the seams with pins, but as noted, that can be very frustrating. I've never run across a situation where a catenary curve was needed on a bottom edge of a tent that runs along the ground. Maybe that's because I prefer tents similar to the one in Daryl and Daryl's avatar, but those have peak to bottom corner seams also, just not rising as steeply to the peak or peaks as on mids. I've found that when a canopy is pegged tight, the bias stretch on the fabric allows a straight line hem along the bottom edge near the ground to elevate slightly at it center, often where there is a zip installed on the mids. In future threads, I hope to elaborate a bit more about all this, and hope others will also. Trial and error takes way too long and life is too short.

[Roger Caffin]

> it seemed like I couldn't get the sides taught, even though the guylines and > ridgelines were extremely tight. That suggests to me that the centre pole may not have been high enough. Hum? Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

that would be easy to test. Put a rock or board under the bottom of the pole. that's good to make a tent taut in the middle of the night. Sometimes a piece of bark is good – both sides parallel so pole doesn't slide off

[Sam Farrington]

"> it seemed like I couldn't get the sides taught, even though the guylines and > ridgelines were extremely tight. That suggests to me that the centre pole may not have been high enough. Hum?" Racking the brain does not produce a scenario where the ridgelines of a mid are extremely tight, but the sides are not taut, unless the catenary cut is off or the silnylon is sagging. Note Tipi Walter's photo posted here at http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=63979&startat=540&id=bMNjkEyS:184.153.156.106 Jordo's post on the above mentioned related thread advises the sag has become obsolete with the polyester fabrics. This was my experience also with the Epic Malibu formerly used by Black Diamond; only the almost 2 oz/sq/yd fabric was quite heavy (albeit no liner was needed), and its water resistance was found lacking by some. (BD should have properly seam sealed the tents with the right sealer – not leave it to the customers to read the directions and do so themselves.) But the sagging was eliminated. Did anyone try a properly sealed tunnel with the Malibu? However the Membrane PU2000 tests out, it is only a matter of time until photos like Tipi Walter's are ancient history. No more mucking around with sagging and tightening in downpours during the dark of night. Ventures into the deluge will be limited to visitations with nature, banishments from the tent by soured companions, and escapes from big furry critters who want to share your Kool-Aid.

[Nick Smolinske]

Sam: I used a spreadsheet and plotted points onto hardboard/masonite to make a pattern, then used a rotary cutter to cut along the masonite. The pattern looks pretty smooth and symmetric hanging on my wall so I don't think it has issues. I did have a small (1/2") discrepancy between the peak pieces and the side panels which I tried to trim off smoothly. That'll be corrected for in the next version. I think that's to blame for some of the wrinkling at least. Roger: I thought of that, but the fact that the ridgelines were so tight is what made me think the cat curves weren't quite enough. If it were a matter of not a tall enough pole I don't think the ridges would be tight. However, I did have the pole a bit shorter on the night in question. I'll have to try it out. It seems like if the ridgelines and hems are all tight that the height wouldn't be the issue, but I'll still give it a try. Maybe I'll make a second prototype and just fix the discrepancy with the peak pieces, and also test the first version with a taller pole. I also plan on adding mid-panel tieouts to both tents. It makes sense to me that this fabric shouldn't need much of a cat curve, given its low stretch. So I'll keep working with the curves I've been using and just make some more prototypes.

[Sam Farrington]

Nick, While we can note Jordo's successful results, I am not a mathematician, so don't know for sure whether the parabolic arcs created by flexing small tubes or rods will be the same as the parabolic catenary curves produced by spreadsheets on BPL. However, a quick way to check your catenary curve might be to use tubing with a uniform flex from end to end. Tent pole tubing won't be totally accurate, as there will be some variation in flex at the ferrules, but it might be accurate enough. Another possibility is PVC molding that comes in long lengths in the big box stores. However, that may not have uniform flex due to irregularities in the cheap material, and some of the metal drapery accessories may bend slightly, defeating the need for absolute uniformity of the flex of the material all along its span. Cut the tubing or molding the same length as the ridge line of the mid. Attach a pole tip or small eyelet to each end of the tube/molding and use cheap cord to string the ends together to make a bowed arc. You can connect one end of the cord with a tautline hitch so the bowed arc can be easily and quickly adjusted. Then use the bowed arc as a template and superimpose it over the arc on your already cut hardboard edge, adjusting the cord so the ends and center of the arc are directly on top of the ends and center of the arc you cut into the hardboard. The entire length of the arcs should match. If they don't, that may be the problem. Here are some links, sorry not one-click hyperlinks, that you can copy and paste onto your browser that may be helpful also: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/myog_tech_note_catenary_curves http://www.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/images/jerryscatenary.xls http://www.wvi.com/~ulmyog/ I like to use the tent tube because there is a lot of it lying around the shop, it accepts pole tips to connect to the cord, and it is not likely to distort and bend unevenly as the PVC or thin metal might, especially if used repeatedly as a template. The use of the cord also allows adjustability to any depth of arc you want. The only catch with the bowed tent tube is that when used as a template for marking fabric, the marker must be kept precisely vertical to prevent any variation in the marked line. Fairly small variations will create wrinkles in the mid's wall. There was a post by Paul McLaughlin about successfully using a simple circle of uniform radius; but the arc you get with uniform tubing, rod or bar is different, and called parabolic, because the arc increases as you get closer to its center. You could also check your spreadsheet against any in the above links that you may not be familiar with. Or you could email [email protected] and he might send you a spreadsheet as he has for many. It has also been suggested that when two panels of fabric, each scribed with the desired catenary curve, are joined, they combine to create a different curve, possibly one with a more pronounced arc. Perhaps that should be kept in mind when setting the arc on the bowed template. Another concern I have is that after reading many of the threads on this subject now and in the past, I don't have clarity about the possibilities and effects of selecting different portions of such an arc to use, and if, when and how that should be done. This was alluded to in Lance's post on this thread, but was not clear to me. May you find greater clarity than I have.

[Nick Smolinske]

I got the material (1.25oz silpoly) to make another tarp and while starting to cut the fabric panels I figured out what I did wrong with the other mid. It was a simple error in some calculations, and the cat curve on the bottom pieces didn't quite match the one on the top pieces. Hopefully I can salvage the two pieces I already cut. On the plus side I figured out a much better way to think about the math, and I'm confident I have everything correct now. Tomorrow I'll get a 4×8 sheet of hardboard and make a full pattern for one half of a bottom panel (and redo my top panel pattern). That'll pretty much take away any chance of error on the cat curve side of things. I also did some more thorough comparison testing between the Membrane silpoly and the 1.25 oz silpoly. The Membrane definitely sacrifices significant tear strength with the lack of a ripstop grid. If you poke a small hole in a piece of the fabric and try pulling in different directions it's pretty easy to rip the entire piece in half. Not so easy with the 1.25 oz ripstop silpoly. I don't know how this translates to real world durability, but subjectively the difference seems significant. If you can keep the Membrane sil from getting any holes ripped in it, I doubt it would fail in a real world situation. But I think for my own tent, I'm going to err on the side of durability and keep this 1.25oz prototype and sell the Membrane mid (once I add midpanel tieouts, which should alleviate the loose side panel issue). There's a loss of hydrostatic head (and a couple oz of weight), but I think the tradeoff is worth it for me. Both fabrics are still a significant upgrade from silnylon in my opinion.

[J-L]

Nick, I was interested by your post, so I also performed a tear test with the fabric. I tried 3 fabrics from RBTR, which I'll label as A, B, and C since the fabric names are getting confusing: A. Membrane SilPoly (PU2000, 1.03 oz/yd^2, 15D plain-weave) B. 1.1oz SilPoly (PU4000, 1.4 oz/yd^2, 20Dx20D) C. 1.1oz SilPoly (1.24 oz/yd^2, 20Dx50D) First, I poked a small hole in each fabric using my seam ripper. I was unable to get the hole to propagate or the fabric to tear in all 3 fabrics. It seems pinholes do not matter here Next, I cut a small slit in each fabric, about 1/2'' long, using a pair of scissors. Fabric A tore without much effort. Fabric B was better than Fabric A, but still tore. And Fabric C did not tear at all, but you could see some deformation of the fabric. This is surprising to me since Fabric B seems to be the most substantial and puncture-resistant of all 3 fabrics. Keep in mind this is all subjective though. My guess is the 50D grid in Fabric C contributes an impressive amount of strength and tear resistance. What do others think? Could it actually be the PU coating is weakening Fabrics A and B, while the silicone impregnation strengthens Fabric C? I still think a shelter made of Fabric A would be fine as long as you are careful with it. Only getting out and using the fabric will tell

[Sam Farrington]

So Richard posted on this thread his results for A and C. I thought he took great pains to avoid them being mixed up. Fabric A had outstanding WR for a material this light. But after simulated aging, C was under 500mm HH. That has got to be LEAKY, and less than better quality DWR. Fabric C had the 50 denier double ripstop, shown in Richard's micrograph, so was very tear resistant. Roger Caffin's comments about tearing of tents on his many breezy winter outings come to mind. The tears come near tie-outs or corners, or where there is pole breakage, if I remember his comments correctly. So John, while I do appreciate your experiments with tearing on these fabrics, I wonder why you seem to put a greater premium on the presence of ripstop construction over water resistance. I don't need Roger to tell me that leaking is a big problem as tents or tarps age. I've suffered enough on my own. Granted, we don't know much about any of these polyester fabrics from RBTR. We don't find them on commercially manufactured products, which would provide some assurance that some folks with a lot more skin in the game have elected to use them on outdoor products. So it is a crapshoot. Some of the fabrics from tarps that Richard got from me and recently tested and posted his results on the GEAR forum are mini-ripstops from Terra- Nova and Sea to Summit products. While they did not do so well with HH after aging, they still remained over 1400mm, which is better than what is provided on many new tents and tarps in the USA from better manufacturers. If I wanted to take the more cautious route, I'd use one of those. Throwing caution to the winds, as often prevails here, I'd use the membrane material from RBTR that appears to maintain its WR so well after aging. We use reinforcement patches for all the pressure points on tents, as do the better quality manufacturers. I think that is sufficient to address tearing. It is the durability of the polyester with aging that is of greater concern. You've probably seen coated nylons from some tents completely go to pot after moderate use. The coatings peel and crack, the fabrics become stiff and brittle, and we can get soaked. Fortunately, the wearing out is a gradual process, and careful souls can see that and get a replacement before total melt down occurs. So I'm not sure how to proceed. Maybe I'll make two of the same tent. One with the 1.04 oz Membrane and 1.8 oz Epic Malibu – the risky tent; and one with only the 1.05 oz mini-riptop fabric from commercial products – the safe tent. After crunching the numbers, the Epic version comes out only 1 oz heavier, as the weight of the EPIC is offset by having only the single wall. Comparison with use in the field might yield some more definitive info. Nick, Glad to hear you solved the caternary cut problem. Thank you for posting the details.

[Kyle Baker]

Hi John thanks for the testing and feedback. Yes the tear strength is lower on the Membrane silpoly. That's a product of a couple things – polyester yarn, it being 15D, and the PU coating on the backside. Everything is a tradeoff though. For example, the poly is how we get the low water absorption and elimination of sag. The PU2000 coating affords top-rate waterproofing, both virgin and aged. In general, I don't think a same denier ripstop (e.g. 20D taffeta vs 20Dx20D ripstop) has much impact at all on tear strength. However, using a cross-denier as in the 20Dx50D may help some. Above that, you are correct in that the high sil content is further strengthening the 20Dx50D compared to the PU backside fabrics. I did pay attention to this a good bit during testing on the Membrane silpoly. I knew we were pushing the envelope with a 15D poly PU coated fabric, so I wanted to put in as much due diligence as possible. In the end, I concluded that the benefits outweighed the drawbacks of lower tear strength and that for the majority of shelter designs, the tear strength wouldn't be a problem. I do tell folks to treat it like any other piece of UL gear though. Be willing to handle it with a little extra care going in and you should be fine.

[J-L]

"So John, while I do appreciate your experiments with tearing on these fabrics, I wonder why you seem to put a greater premium on the presence of ripstop construction over water resistance." @Sam: I am not sure why you say this, as in my post directly above yours, I state of PU2000 Membrane Silpoly (Fabric A): "I still think a shelter made of Fabric A would be fine as long as you are careful with it. Only getting out and using the fabric will tell" Nowhere do I state or mean to imply that tear resistance is more important than water resistance. To clarify, I think a well-constructed tent made of PU2000 fabric would work fine. I do not have concerns about the fabric tearing at properly reinforced tie-outs or at properly-sewn seams. In such a tent, I think the only way the PU2000 fabric would fail during use would be from a pre-existing tear or rip, i.e. you accidentally nick the fabric on a sharp rock or stick and don't notice the tear. I can't remember ever tearing a tent this way, however, I like to think I am moderately careful. I have built a small kitchen tarp out of the PU2000 Membrane Silpoly. My plan is to use this tarp for a few months, generally not treat it very well, and see how it does before making a tent out of the stuff. @Kyle: thanks for the info about the fabric, and for bringing us all these different fabrics. I think they do represent a big improvement over the standard 30D silnylon. I see you now have the 1.1oz SilPoly in both 20Dx20D and 20Dx50D configurations. The 20Dx20D version would be interesting to experiment with and compare to the PU4000, as it would provide a direct comparison between sil-coating/impregnation and PU-coating (I assume the fabrics are otherwise equivalent).

[Kyle Baker]

Just a heads up that "Fabric C" as listed by Nick was NOT tested by Richard in this thread or ever I don't think. Here's what Richard tested, in order: 1. Membrane Silpoly – PU2000 back side, Sil/PU mix front-side 2. 1.1 oz Silpoly 20D x 20D – Sil/PU both sides 3. Membrane Silpoly – Sil/PU both sides (not a material we currently offer) Nick are you sure you had 20Dx50D and not 20Dx20D? The grid is much more prominent on the 20Dx50D and the fabric has more body to it.

[Nick Smolinske]

To clarify, I think the Membrane is a great fabric that will work for a lot of people. I'm just a bit worried about it for some of my trips – for example, spending 2 weeks in the Grand Canyon with no bail options, like I did last winter. I can confirm that tenacious tape sticks pretty good to the PU-coated side of this fabric, though. Kyle, thanks for clarifying that Richard tested the 20Dx20D, not the 20Dx50D. There was a bit of confusion there due to them being the same weight. The material I have is the 20Dx20D. We'll see how it goes! If it starts to leak I'll probably give it another coat of silicone (with the silicone caulk + mineral spirits soak method). Since both sides are sil/PU, I think that would work fine. I also might make a tiny mid out of a mix of fabrics, and subject it to some improvised "wind tunnel" testing, with and without poking some holes in the side panels first. That'll be a fun experiment. I'll do one side membrane sil, one side silpoly PU4000, one side silnylon, and I'm not sure what the forth side will be (I used all my 1.25oz silpoly on the next mid prototype). Any ideas? Also, I did end up making that full-size pattern, to take some of the work out of cat curves. It worked ok but was kind of a pain to use, as the fabric tended to bunch up under it and it was hard to correct for that. So today I "skelatized" it with my jigsaw. The new version is *much* easier to maneuver around on the fabric: Lightweight pattens for lightweight fabrics, I guess. Sorry for the blurry photo. I use it as-is for the door panels, cutting around all sides. I use it twice (cut the diagonal and horizontal sides, then turn it over and finish the cut) to cut the other panels. I made a separate pattern for the triangular piece on the top of each side. Now that I've made a couple of prototypes, I'm pretty psyched on making these in production. I'm not sure which fabric(s) I'm going to end up using, but I'm sold on some form of silpoly. The lack of sag is an amazing improvement over silnylon. Maybe I'll use the 1.4oz for folks who want to play it safe and the membrane as a lighter option. Those are the two PU-coated weights with really good HH results after aging.

[Andrew Waight]

Just a side note, the MSR Elixir rainfly uses "68D ripstop polyester 1500mm Polyurethane & DWR" ….so mabye some commercial manufacturers are starting to switch over.

[Nick Smolinske]

Andrew, I think polyester tent fabrics have been around for a while, just not ones as light as the ones Kyle has brought to the market. 68D is quite a bit heavier than the 20D and 15D of the silpoly variants we've been discussing. That does give me an idea though – if I could find a partly destroyed tent I could test a commercial fabric as the 4th fabric in my test mid.

[Sam Farrington]

John, Thanks for clearing that up for me. You're kitchen tarp sounds like a good plan.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam > Roger Caffin's comments about tearing of tents on his many breezy winter outings come > to mind. The tears come near tie-outs or corners, or where there is pole breakage, if > I remember his comments correctly. I suspect you may be confusing me with someone else. The silnylon sleeve on my blue tent did rip on one occasion when the carbon fibre pole snapped in the middle of the night under a huge snow-loading. Made one hell of a bang at 3 am and woke us both up rather abruptly. I have since added internal storm guys to prevent that from ever happening again. But I have NEVER had any tearing of silnylon fabric at tie-outs or corners in any of MY many tents, and that is despite some very 'interesting' storms. The old stock silnylon was quite strong enough if sewn correctly in a suitable design. It may be that I once reported on a fabric tear at a guy-out on a 3rd-party tarp I was reviewing, but that failure was 100% due to the way the tarp had been sewn. No IFs, no BUTs, and no MAYBEs there: the design was at fault. Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> Maybe I'll make two of the same tent. One with the 1.04 oz Membrane and 1.8 oz Epic > Malibu – the risky tent; and one with only the 1.05 oz mini-riptop fabric from > commercial products – the safe tent. Do I read that correctly – that you regard the EPIC Malibu as the risky fabric? If so, I entirely agree. I have used EPIC Malibu for sub-zero ski jackets (it sheds dry snow and breathes well), but I would never use it for a tent to take rain. It WILL leak. Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Kyle, The fabrics Richard tested began with links to your website pages to deter confusion. The second fabric he tested began with a link "1.1 oz SP 2nd Gen". That link brings up "1.1 oz Silpoly," stated to be "in stock," 1.24 oz per sq yd, and available in 20 x 20 denier as well 20 x 50 denier in some colors noted with an asterisk. Richard's micrograph of that fabric shows a double ripstop. John Harper, in his 11/16 post described his Fabric C as "C. 1.1oz SilPoly (1.24 oz/yd^2, 20Dx50D)." Did I miss something? Thanks.

[Sam Farrington]

Roger, Re: "I suspect you may be confusing me with someone else." I could never confuse you with someone else. The part you mention about the pole break I remember well. Somehow I also got the incorrect impression that you also mentioned fabric at tie-outs in the same post. Sorry for the confusion. Was too tired to chase down your post. It can take all night.

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