Volumetrically Dense Food?

Frank T – Ah, thanks for the heads up! Good to know about the tablets. I guess if I want to try one out I should just buy a buy a container of 6 and see how I can handle them, but from the your comments I'm not sure if I'd like them much.

Malto – Half of your calories from malto? What sort of ratios do you typically mix it, and do you have any suggestions for a good brand? All I've ever used was Hammer products from my cycling days.

" But one could borrow a trick from a caving friend of mine – use some sort of bottle to hold loose snacks. He was using a small nalgene to contain M&M's, but you could just as easily hold crushed potato chips in a gatorade bottle for a day. Or crushed trail mix. Or anything else you want to snack on."

If you want to save the weight of a bottle, just use your spoon to eat the crushed food out of a much lighter zip-loc baggie. I've found a spoon eliminates a lot of mess that goes with trying to extract crushed food from a baggie by hand. For true powders like sports drink mix, just cut a triangular section from one corner of the baggie and use the hole like a funnel.

"Malto – Half of your calories from malto? What sort of ratios do you typically mix it, and do you have any suggestions for a good brand? All I've ever used was Hammer products from my cycling days."

On short duration trips I often will do half. on my thru hike I only did 1200-1800 calories per day in Malto which was still 70-80lbs over the course of the hike. I buy my Malto in 50lb bags. you can get it from Honeyville but that is a powder vs. Agglomerate. See this thread for more info.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=72290

I just came across this PDF — it is long enough that I have not read it all. The parts I skimmed look decent, though. Note that this sort of discussion is relevant to those doing hiking or backpacking at a level that is comparable to any other endurance sport, whether single day or multi-day. The information is irrelevant to a weekend rambler — i.e. most weekend backpackers.

Essentials of Nutrition for Sports

–MV

Stinger waffles are small, flat, 160 calories and I think 1.1 oz.
When your bear can is full you can always stuff several around the edges.
I've eaten probably 100…and finally starting to burn out on em…probably horrible for my teeth…all sugar and oil.

"I just came across this PDF — it is long enough that I have not read it all. The parts I skimmed look decent, though. Note that this sort of discussion is relevant to those doing hiking or backpacking at a level that is comparable to any other endurance sport, whether single day or multi-day. The information is irrelevant to a weekend rambler — i.e. most weekend backpackers."

Nice find. Didn't read the whole thing yet, but many of the recommendations about looking skeptically at claims are worth their weight in gold. His dissection of a number of widely believed claims is brutal and spot-on.

Bill S.

… [this] discussion is relevant to those doing hiking or backpacking at a level that is comparable to any other endurance sport, whether single day or multi-day. The information is irrelevant to a weekend rambler — i.e. most weekend backpackers.

It does look like a very good piece. Thanks!

But I am beginning to question the qualifier you used. I've used it myself many times too, so I'm questioning my own thinking here.

Why wouldn't good sports nutrition be any different for a regular guy, like me, who goes out once every couple of months for a weekend? Why wouldn't they benefit from science based nutrition advice for their sport?

Sure, if you're not an elite athlete your diet may or may not make a difference. But is there any reason why a guy like me should _not_ use malto for 40-50% of calories on a weekender?

Just thinking out loud. And yes, I'll probably give the malto a whirl next time I'm out.

Read my post title above.

And think it out a bit.

Eating to live is a bit overrated. You need to enjoy ALL of life, and eating is part of that. But hey, whatta do I know….enjoy your brick o' colon blocker. Lol…..

You may not have to get too fancy to do two weeks in a bear can if it is a Bearikade Expedition. I can do 12 days in mine without changing anything from my usual menu – the only expedient I need is to repackage all freeze dried meals into ziplocs – those foil pouches pack very bulky. I would bet I could get to 14 days without much further ado, like by avoiding pasta in favor of rice in my dinners, and swapping in more fruit leather for the dried apricots and raisins (fruit leather is great for filling tiny cracks in the bear can assembly, much more space efficient than plain dried fruit). I'm usually around 1.5 pounds and 2200 calories of food per day, which works for me – I lose about 3-5 lbs in a week at that rate but I'm not hungry for more.

Sarah, you're cracking me up.

OK I got !00% on the quiz at the beginning of that link. So dammit, I'm an expert. Or I'm good at taking quizzes [spoiler: the pattern was clear by #3].

There's density and there's geometry. I might focus more on geometry. So take the angel hair or the cous-cous instead of the ramen.

I think the nutrition stuff gets waaaay overthunk.

Bring a variety of foods that you like. Muster all the spacial-relations skills you've got to cram it in.

"'… [this] discussion is relevant to those doing hiking or backpacking at a level that is comparable to any other endurance sport, whether single day or multi-day. The information is irrelevant to a weekend rambler — i.e. most weekend backpackers.'

"But I am beginning to question the qualifier you used. I've used it myself many times too, so I'm questioning my own thinking here.

"Why wouldn't good sports nutrition be any different for a regular guy, like me, who goes out once every couple of months for a weekend? Why wouldn't they benefit from science based nutrition advice for their sport?"

IMO, you're right to question the relevance assumptions, and FWIW, I think most of the research is actually *more* relevant to exercise over one or a few days. Very little of it addresses what's happening to your body over a week, two weeks, a month, or longer.

"Sure, if you're not an elite athlete your diet may or may not make a difference. But is there any reason why a guy like me should _not_ use malto for 40-50% of calories on a weekender?"

IMO, unlikely there is any major adverse health consequence to artificial diet over short term, though you may need to pay more attention to micronutrients that have been processed out.

For a variety of reasons that can fairly be characterized as personal preference, I don't favor it for backpacking, but I have no hesitation to using it for cycling under conditions when it's more convenient (or in the case of racing, pretty much necessary). I'd be more concerned about potential adverse health effects of carb and protein powders over the span of several weeks or months, especially if they were not accompanied by a liberal amount of nutritious, real food to make up the rest of my diet.

Cheers,

Bill S.

"What about freeze dried fruit powders? I know you can get strawberry powder pretty easily, not sure about other fruits. You could then mix it with water to get your fruit fix."

That would be good, but it's like $50/lb, right?

Cheers,

Bill S.

My qualifying comment was not about the length of exercise as much as it was about the intensity of the exercise. The sort of things being talked about may make a lot of difference to endurance athlete levels of exertion, but they may not matter much to those exercising a lot less strenuously. I doubt they would hurt anyone; it's just that there are some for whom it is not important.

–MV

"What about freeze dried fruit powders?"

Fructose uptake from the gut occurs across a fairly narrow range of conditions. To much can lead to extended off-trail excursions. You definitely want to test it's use on a "near-home" route.

"I have gone for 5 days on peanut butter mixed with honey at a ratio of 2 to 1. It achieves a cookie dough like consistency, keeps in heat, doesn't freeze even in cold temps and it is quite tasty."

Peanut butter is not a 'complete protein'… mix in some sunflower seeds and you will have a complete protein that will be MUCH more useful for your body.

billy

enjoy your brick o' colon blocker. Lol…..

You crack me up @Sara. And yes, a whole hearted YES to enjoying ALL of life. Sometimes, for me, it means getting down to bare essentials and allowing myself to just be–open, curious and without expectation. And as for your concern for my colon (thank you) dried fruit and other delectable fibers for the remaining 50-60% should go a long way. :)

I think the nutrition stuff gets waaaay overthunk.

Precisely @Katherine. How much simpler could it get?

… you may need to pay more attention to micronutrients that have been processed out.

Good Point, Well Taken @Bill. I was following another thread that addressed this issue at great lengths.

Maybe we put too much expectation on externals to provide us with joy and happiness. I go out, in part, to get away and let go into a much simpler mode of living.

"My qualifying comment was not about the length of exercise as much as it was about the intensity of the exercise. The sort of things being talked about may make a lot of difference to endurance athlete levels of exertion, but they may not matter much to those exercising a lot less strenuously. I doubt they would hurt anyone; it's just that there are some for whom it is not important."

We just beat this one to death in an other thread, and in several other threads down thru the years, so I'll be brief: The "powders", properly integrated into a diet containing mostly "real food" can greatly simplify and rationalize calorie intake while on the move, and jump start the recovery process once you stop moving. If your objectives also include reducing the weight of the food you carry by utilizing body fat, they also provide a precise way to assure adequate carb intake to facilitate fat metabolism. In the end, it all depends on your goals and backpacking style. For some, gourmet meals are a major part of the backcountry experience; for others, food is a way to sustain themselves while devoting the majority of their time and attention to the backcountry itself. Both are perfectly legitimate and exist on a continuum that allows for elements of both in varying proportions. Overthunk? Perhaps, but my rejoinder would be that it depends on who is doing the thinking. And why. ;0))

Interesting discussion. Thanks to all.

Bill:

Yeah, $50/pound is about average for strawberry powder . . . so yeah, equivalent to paying $10 a pound for fresh strawberries, maybe?

"Fructose uptake from the gut occurs across a fairly narrow range of conditions. To much can lead to extended off-trail excursions. You definitely want to test it's use on a "near-home" route."

Great to know, Greg!

Also, I just googled and found a recipe for making fruit powders yourself. I always thought you needed to use the dry, brittle freeze-dried fruit, but the recipe called for freezing normal dried fruit and then putting it in a food processor. Much, much cheaper, if it works. But I am not responsible if you break your food processor…

"Yeah, $50/pound is about average for strawberry powder . . . so yeah, equivalent to paying $10 a pound for fresh strawberries, maybe?"

Point well taken, Smo, and if online info is right, strawberries are ~ 90% water, so more like $5/lb equivalent. Not bad, if you're subbing them for fresh strawberries! OTOH, except perhaps as a breakfast treat, I'm exchanging them for raisins, at ~ $2/lb, or some other dried fruits, at ~ $3/lb, and even after accounting for the excess water in those, $50/lb isn't lighting my fire.

"Fructose uptake from the gut occurs across a fairly narrow range of conditions. To much can lead to extended off-trail excursions. You definitely want to test it's use on a "near-home" route."

Glass half empty/half full, perhaps, but I'd say fructose uptake from the gut is only a limitation under a fairly narrow range of conditions. We're talking about dried fruit, not Drano, but yeah, if you eat too much (or if you're going at race pace), it can upset your stomach. How much is too much? Well, if you try to get a couple thousand calories a day while hiking from ~ a pound of strawberry powder, it might not work out too well for your wallet or for your innards.

"Also, I just googled and found a recipe for making fruit powders yourself. I always thought you needed to use the dry, brittle freeze-dried fruit, but the recipe called for freezing normal fruit and then putting it in a food processor. Much, much cheaper, if it works. But I am not responsible if you break your food processor…"

I have doubts as to whether I'd be able to get it much drier than regular dried fruit, but I would be very pleased to be proven wrong!

Cheers,

Bill S.

Friend did a mulit-day alaskan cross country race fueled by lard.

Cut off a frozen slice and let it melt in the mouth while running.

My mom said bear fat makes the best pastries and has more calories than other lards.

Plan your trip to go thru some forest service land where the bears are thick, buy a bear tag—

"I have doubts as to whether I'd be able to get it much drier than regular dried fruit, but I would be very pleased to be proven wrong!"

Looks like a typo in my post (which I will now correct). I meant to say that the recipe called for freezing normal, already dried fruit. So it's not meant to get lighter than regular fruit, just a cheaper way to powder it.

Here is a dietician's take on things backpacking. Older, but interesting. http://thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php

"You may not have to get too fancy to do two weeks in a bear can if it is a Bearikade Expedition. I can do 12 days in mine without changing anything from my usual menu…"

I did 8.5 days in a Bearikade Weekender. I ate well, with very little repetition of meals – just my favorites. I had cheese sticks, gummy bears, and all kinds of things ranging from sweet to sour to salty to savory. I make my own meals (Sarah's website and a couple of books on trail recipes plus things that sound good to me) and lost a few pounds, but was not left hungry. I had my coffee, my cocoa, my lemonade packets, whatever I could find in small tubes. I walked out with a single Larabar and about a cup of trail mix left. Couscous, rice and dehydrated pasta figured prominently, with packets of olive oil both for adding to meals and cooking trout along the way. We only ate fish one night, and it wasn't really necessary.

Bear cans are about freezer bags (they don't tend to break and leave you scraping couscous and cheese powder out of the bottom of the can) and removing all air possible before rolling the contents and jamming them in. I lay the can on its side and pile bags in the bottom like logs, then stand it up and jam drink mix sticks and slim stuff like bars in the gaps. Then I lay it back down and add another layer. This leaves me with about an inch gap on top for tortillas or pita bread or just a layer of bagged food. Trash and hygiene items get jammed down among the bags; after the first day of snacking and dinner, there's enough room for it. Since i prefer variety I take many smaller portions in pint size bags rather than big bags of multiple servings of the same thing.

Deprivation is not all it's cracked up to be. For two weeks, I'd take what I liked, plus a few bland things if elevation wrecks my appetite the first couple of days (usually the only effect it has on me), and rent the Expedition if I had to.

i've recently found a bar I like- seems pretty dense (and edible… and affordable…) to me.

"Epic" bison, bacon, & cranberry bar: a lot like jerky, or a slim jim wihtout the chemicals. 1.5 oz.; 2 1/2 cubic inches; 200 calories; nothing in it you can't pronounce; $2.33. That's cheaper than store-bought jerky. Tastes great!

"Friend did a mulit-day alaskan cross country race fueled by lard.

Cut off a frozen slice and let it melt in the mouth while running."

A much healthier version, but sort of along similar lines: If i ever get to do the Brooks Range trip, or some other equivalent cold and long term trip, my primary food would be Garden of Life's "Raw Meal" mixed with virgin coconut oil. The latter is easier to digest than lard and the Raw meal powder provides a full spectrum of both macro and micro nutrients in an easy to digest, highly bio-available, and light form.

and it has dual use for cold-chapped skin care!