Layering strategy for Winter Running

Jon, one possible solution would be to add a windproof vest instead of a jacket. It doesn't get all that cold here in central Texas, but I've worn a lightweight merino baselayer with a midweight fleece and a Brooks windproof vest down into the single digits. The vest keeps my core from getting too chilled, but it breathes way better than a full jacket, so you don't have nearly as much moisture buildup in your base layers. I can't recall that I've ever seen anyone running in down (again, this is Texas), my guess is that it would be way too warm for aerobic activity.

MeCo is not really a synthetic, it's a Merino wool/polyester blend with 65% wool to 35% cocona polyester. It wicks better than full wool, dries a bit faster, is a bit more durable, and still has really good odor control.

Patagonia Capilene 4 stuff with polygiene is great, both for a baselayer and for a mid layer.

When it comes to baselayers and colder weather, i prefer this in about order. Pat Cap 4, Merino-synthetic blends, and polypropylene fishnet.

The PP fishnet would be higher, but develops a lot of stink. I'm looking for a way around this currently. PP absorbs a lot of oil, so i was thinking of getting a stable oil, infusing it with a strong antimicrobial essential oil mix like clove w/ rosemary, and oiling it up with same.

You run with a down beanie and mitts? May i ask why? Grid fleece hat/mitts, wool hat/mitts etc, etc is plenty warm while running (especially if you have hair) and much easier/safer to wash. You'll dirty up your expensive down quick sweating in it, and washing it more often is not good for it.

Do you really run in all those layers plus a down vest, hat, and mittens at 25 degrees? And a WPB shell over all that when it snows?

Sounds like you'd freeze to death in the layers I would normally recommend. I would probably be in shorts, a long sleeve (probably merino) shirt or hoody and a wind jacket or vest. I'd start out with a light fleece or merino beanie and thin synthetic or merino gloves. The hat and possibly the gloves would quickly end up in a pocket.

And what precipitation are you talking about at these cold temperatures that would require such a bombproof neoshell jacket? I've never found a waterproof shell necessary for running unless I was out for some day long excursion in pouring rain with temps in the 40s/50s.

I also found it interesting that you prefer merino to cotton for your entire wardrobe. I would think the lower initial cost and better durability of cotton would more than offset the savings in laundry costs you experience, but I admit that I don't have a good understanding of what my monthly laundry costs really are.

Australian summe rhere right now. Reaches mid-30s (C) quite easily. The thought of running with ANY top on is pretty horrible. :-)

Cheers
PS: Sue and I go running about 6 am – its already getting warm then.

Wow. I have to agree, that's an amazing amount of clothing for relatively mild winter temps. At 25 degrees I would be wearing something like a Capilene 3, maybe a 4 if it were overcast and/or breezy, a light fleece headband and light fleece gloves. Anything more than that would result in lots of unnecessary sweating and general sogginess.

"I love how anti-bacterial it is. I feel much more hygienic …"

Not that this was a key statement within your OP, but I thought you might find the following interesting.

This thread (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=94971) highlights a study suggesting wool is actually MORE prone to propagating bacterial growth across a broad spectrum giving "stinky" bacteria less of a foothold due to competition … hence less stink but more bacteria.

It found it provocative enough to change the way I launder my wool unmentionables.

>"You run with a down beanie and mitts? May i ask why? Grid fleece hat/mitts, wool hat/mitts etc, etc is plenty warm while running (especially if you have hair) and much easier/safer to wash. You'll dirty up your expensive down quick sweating in it, and washing it more often is not good for it."

I don't run in down mitts. I just got them and was curious how they'd perform under high aerobic activity. It was a one time thing. My hands were roasting and I likely won't do it again. I got a new toy and wanted to test it out :)

The down beanie is something that I also just got, but I have to say, it performs like a champ in cold weather runs. I was previously using an OR Windpro, and while that's a superb running hat, on really cold days I'll probably use the down beanie. I'll be honest with you, even in warmer weather like 40F, the HadronS wicks moisture and regulates temperature better than the WindPro. It just feels more comfortable. Or maybe I have "new toy" syndrome, and the effect is just a placebo. Either way, it's a superb hat.

Out of curiosity, why the fishnet? I remember reading an article that said it would warmer if you wear it under another layer, but my legs are the one thing I've never had a problem keeping warm during runs.

>"Do you really run in all those layers plus a down vest, hat, and mittens at 25 degrees? And a WPB shell over all that when it snows?

>Sounds like you'd freeze to death in the layers I would normally recommend. I would probably be in shorts, a long sleeve (probably merino) shirt or hoody and a wind jacket or vest. I'd start out with a light fleece or merino beanie and thin synthetic or merino gloves. The hat and possibly the gloves would quickly end up in a pocket…. "

Perhaps my post was a bit too over eager. I usually don't wear any down at 25F. The mitts and beanie were really just a test. At 25F I'd be wearing the following:

-Merino tights
-Shorts
-Merino LS Crew
-Merino Half-zip
-OR WindPro Hat
-Thin Liner Gloves
-And if it's particularly windy, yeah, my neoshell jacket. Central Park can get really windy. Often times in winter I'll go for a run, and I'll be routinely hit with 20mph wind gusts. If your layers are damp from sweat (and since I'm wearing merino they generally are), a flash-off effect will happen. It will literally knock the wind out of me. I was reading some BPL articles, and I'm thinking a good windshirt might be better suited for light rain, snow and wind, but I'm telling you the Shift LT is incredible during harsh weather runs. I remember last year this crazy blizzard hit. During my run I honestly couldn't see more than 8 feet in front of my face. It was so windy the snow was literally falling horizontal, but my Neoshell jacket was like a weightless suit of armor.

The thing is, if your baselayers get soaked, you get really susceptible to wind chill. And freezing rain/snow + perspiration from a 30 minute run = one very soaked merino baselayer. A shell keeps me dry, and drastically cuts the wind chill.

I've seen people with down vests (not full on jackets) running in the park, and was thinking maybe they were on to something… sounds like it would be overkill.

I personally could not run in 25F weather without a beanie or gloves. Maybe I'm just susceptible to cold, but by the time I finished my run, my hands would be numb and I'd have a severe headache from leaving my head unprotected.

In regards to merino vs cotton. I have been using merino exclusively for a year and I have found it to be more durable than cotton. For the most part I just use Icebreaker and Darn Tough, and have found their build quality to be excellent – zero holes in any of their stuff over a year of heavy use. Darn Tough socks have really blown me away. I will honestly never buy any other socks. I have a cheap pair of Terramar tights that developed a small hole in the crotch, but that's it – and I was wearing them every single day last winter.

"Out of curiosity, why the fishnet?"

It's probably not the kind of fishnet you're thinking of, and i don't wear it on my legs, but as a top. It's made out of a thicker polypropylene material and it's always combined with a highly wind resistant outer. It's the go to, sort of official baselayer material for the Norwegian Military, or so i've heard.

The PP material absorbs practically no moisture, so the sweat is allowed to evaporate directly off your skin. There isn't much conductive material directly on your skin, so between that and the direct skin evaporation, it feels warmer and more comfortable when combined with a highly wind resistant outer layer since it's stilled air that provides most insulation to begin with.

If you over heat, it's very easy, quick, and efficient to dump both heat and moisture.

Richard Nisely's tests though, indicate that there isn't much of a difference with most baselayers in effect on body core temps during exertion to rest modes, though perceived comfort can be different.

I definitely find them more comfortable by a long shot than pretty much anything except Polartec Power Dry High Efficiency grid fleece. You can get them for 5 dollars currently, which is a steal, considering they are the real deal made in Norway stuff.

I tried the super thin, fishnet leg stockings with windbreaker pants, they didn't do much. The material probably wasn't thick enough to create a more ideal layer of stilled air space. Currently, i'm working on a prototype using super thick, chunky yarn sewn onto a wind resistant fabric. The yarn is a blend of acrylic and wool, so i expect it to be much less stinky than the polypropylene stuff.

if you're only talking about a 30 minute run, you can run in almost anything.
just have a shell with you in case.
for a short run like that you may even go with a non breathable vapor barrier shell and lighter under layers like a Cap 3. it will keep you warmer. getting wet for less than an hour is not a big deal.

Yeah, it sounds like you are wearing a lot of layers for running. I am just getting into trail running, but when we were at temperatures around 25F all I had on was my MEC T-3 (power dry fleece) and a light windshirt. I'd wear a toque and light gloves if it was windy.

I'd be nice and cool starting off and by the end of the run my gloves and toque would be in my pocket, and both my baselayer and windshirt were completely unzipped.

Not sure exactly what temps we used to run down to in MA when I was in HS (definitely low 30s) but i'd wear shorts with goretex wind pants, long sleeve poly pro of varying weights, goretex running jacket with back vent and mesh liner. Hat, neck gaiter, gloves/mittens (or both) that would be anywhere from 4-7mi

you should acclimate to the cold once you start going. Also if you go year round then you can adjust as the temps drop.

Another strategy friends have used is to warm up indoors.. either on treadmill or stationary bike and then head outside.

Winter running has to require clothes much like we XC skiers use. You may not want a stretch Lycra one-piece suit but look around at sites supplying XC clothing, especially race clothes, including gloves.

Getting a little off topic here but…
Eric, what kind of things would you look for in cross country ski clothes and why would they need to be different from regular winter hiking clothes? (i want to get into cross country skiing, that's why I'm asking)

"what kind of things would you look for in cross country ski clothes and why would they need to be different from regular winter hiking clothes?"

That's a large umbrella. What kind of x-country are you doing?

If you mean very fast loops on a Nordic course, then the running-type clothes used by cross-country racers ARE different. Very light, wicking and meant for intense burst of high metabolic activity. Much like the running clothes for winter…

If you are doing more "hiking on skis" then generally your typical hiking clothes, with some tweaks, work fine. Shell pants and jacket. Base layers. Hat. glove/mitts. Insulation mid-layer. A larger puffy layer for breaks.

Obviously you can get more specific, but the general outline above works just fine.

I run daily, in Westchester county.

For 35 degrees, I use a Nike LS top and shorts.
For 25 degrees, I use a cheap pair of City Sports tights, and a Craft baselayer (which wicks much much better than wool.)
Below 25, I add a fleece vest, or very rarely a windshirt, but never both.

In all cases I wear wool Smartwool running socks and DeFeet Wool Duragloves and maybe carry a Camp USA Wind Mitt'n. And on my head I wear a synthetic buff from 25-35d and a Craft xc hat under 25.

For runs less than 1.5 hours/10 miles, that'll keep me toasty. I don't often run longer than 10 miles in the winter.

I'm an ardent fan of wool, but for high-output endurance sports, I think modern synthetics are where it's at.

What kind of cross country skiing requires me to ski shirtless wearing animal print lycra tights?

for temps in the 20's to 30's, I wear windproof merino boxers and Patagonia Speedwork tights for the bottom; top Ibex Woolies 220 zip w/ a Patagonia Houdini windshirt- light fleece beanie and gloves

10's to 20's, a Montbell lwt merino T (this is the lightest merino I could find) w/ a Cap 4 hoody and Houdini, fleece mittens, medium fleece beanie, bottoms stay the same unless it's very windy and then Houdini pants over the tights

0's to 10's- I add a R-1 vest and the tights are replaced w/ OR Radiant hybrid tights, light glove liners inside the mittens if needed

w/ the Cap 4 hoody and windshirt, you have the option of adding a hood or hoods depending on temp and wind

below 0's- treadmill :)

on longer runs I always carry an additional insulating layer, it seems after 3+ hours of running in the cold my core starts to drop and adding that extra layer helps- usually a R-1 vest or Atom vest

I run all winter long (on snowshoes if need be) in Montana, but will head indoors when the temps drop below 0- just isn't fun then

SHELL- Windbreaker jacket (maybe over 200 wt. fleece vest if too cold)

MID LAYER & LEGS->Lycra & spandex one-piece suit or biking winter pants W/ front windbreaker material

BASE LAYER-> polyester mid or polar wt. long johns (tops need a zip mock turtle neck)

SOCKS-> thin poly liners & medium wt. hiker sox

GLOVES-> XC gloves ( leather palms, fabric backs)

HAT-> stocking hat, wool W/ synthetic inner headband area to cut down on itching (or fleece "Peruvian" style hat made with "Windstopper" laminate.

> If you mean very fast loops on a Nordic course, then the running-type clothes used by
> cross-country racers ARE different. Very light, wicking and meant for intense burst
> of high metabolic activity.
Followed by a gasping collapse when out of sight …

Cheers

>for temps in the 20's to 30's, I wear windproof merino boxers and Patagonia Speedwork tights
>for the bottom; top Ibex Woolies 220 zip w/ a Patagonia Houdini windshirt- light fleece beanie
>and gloves

I'm thinking that a good windshirt is really what I need to get. Of all the major windshirts, which one is the most breathable?

the Houdini used to be near the top, but evidently they changed things around and it's less breathable w/ it's latest iterations, there is an in depth thread floating around about the cfms of the different windshirts- not sure what to recommend now (luckily I've got three old ones)

I've done a few late night runs with my black diamond alpine start. I like it. Very breathable, not totally windproof though.

"Australian summer here right now. Reaches mid-30s (C) quite easily. The thought of running with ANY top on is pretty horrible. :-) "

Roger, unbeknownst to you (or perhaps not), you have given me just the right clue to solve a deep and perplexing mystery. The mystery of your avatar pic. It all makes sense now…. Let me explain.

You were in the height of Aussie Summer, brutal, unforgiving heat, but you decided to fly to Europe for a bit and being incredibly jet lagged, forgot it wasn't summer, but the height of Winter in Europe.

You must have thought all the white stuff was some rare, volcanic dust you can ski on, due it's slick, silica nature. Occam's razor in a nutshell, your welcome BPL for finally unraveling this most perplexing mystery.