Dry Baking Set Up Questions

"Some say “don’t do it” because the non-stick material will burn off with high temps"

It depends on the type of non-stick coating. An organic coating like "teflon" will burn/vaporize off. A sprayed/sputtered ceramic like Vargo has used on some of its Ti pots is impervious to heat.

I wouldn't count on flame/heat control to be sure you didn't get above the critical temperature of an organic.

On the other hand, if you are baking outside, and you aren't huffing, you're probably OK.

Jon Fong at Flat Cat sells some good dry baking set ups, and has some recipes on his web site:

http://www.flatcatgear.com/the-flat-cat-cookbook/

Fry baking, a nonstick pan should be fine. When dry baking, I wouldn't use a non-stick pan. The pot tends to reach temperatures north of 500 F to 600 F, not a good temperature for Teflon or ceramic coatings. You would be better of with a plain aluminum or titanium pot.

It is complicated to dry bake with an alcohol stove due to the thermal feedback from the pot. It can be done, you will need a reliable setup. Best wishes.

A non-stick pan is fine for dry baking. The most important component is the stove – you need one with a very low simmer capability. I'll emphasise that again – VERY LOW simmer. That way, you don't need an inner and outer pan and the pan does not get so hot that it burns your baking. If your baking is not burnt then you are also well below the temperature that would damage teflon.
I use a MSR quick skillet + lid on a remote canister stove for dry baking bannock and scones.

"It is complicated to dry bake with an alcohol stove due to the thermal feedback from the pot."

The radiant heat from the pot can heat the alcohol in the stove to it's boiling point, resulting in a "run away" situation. Flames then engulf the stove. At the least, you boil off fuel at a high rate, and get little in return. At least this has been my experience with a Caldera Cone, largely because it is So good at sequestering heat.

From my own experiences (and I have used many, many pans), I do not dry bak in non-stick. I will pan-fry though – with plenty of oil, but not dry bake. The non-stick coatings on the majority of the outdoor pots are not thick and don't deal well with a focused flame in the first place (most stoves have a very focused flame point, and this tends to burn food if you don't pay attention). The focus flame leaves a mark on pans – take a careful look and you will see it, hard to explain, but once you see it, it is apparent to the eye.

If you choose to cook this way, do NOT sit where you are breathing in the fumes.

PS: This is the same thing that happens at home, when heating non-stick pans too hot dry – it isn't good for the lining, shortens the use of the pan and smells uber bad.

From http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon/en_US/products/safety/cookware_safety.html
Teflon is considered safe to use (for humans) up to 500F.
When pan-frying, the temperature will be around 400-470F.
When dry baking, the temperature will be around 325-400F (less than for pan-frying).

If the pan exceeds 400F when baking, your muffin (or whatever) will be burnt.
If you dry bake without burning, you don't need to worry about the teflon.

The scare stories about teflon arise from tests using birds. Birds have extremely efficient lungs and are very sensitive to many different vapours – this is the reason they used to be taken down mines. Human lungs are much less efficient.

@Sarah: What sort of stove do you bring when you do both dry baking and use a non stick fry pan on the same trip?

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

Sounds like there is little room for error when using non stick with dry baking.

Perhaps I could use a non stick fry pan as the lid to my aluminum pot when dry baking? With the Teflon facing up? Then use the fry pan for things like pizza, pancakes, and pan frying other small items quickly as opposed to long exposure to concentrated heat.

Stuart, the temps of a standard stove – and the highly focused flame – will slowly wreck the pan no matter what if used dry. I have even a Ti pot that has a warp due to this. Won't sit on pot supports right anymore. Was a $100 pot…now a lumpy water holder.

Michael,

I have found the best luck in any baking – dry or pan frying – to be with an MSR WindPro remote canister. It is a slow stove (so not the greatest water boiler), but for slow cooking and the ability to dial in an ultra-low flame, it is a winner.

But…this comes with a price of course – it isn't a cheap stove and nor is it the lightest. Still, it does amazing work.

If I want to cook something that is dryer, I carry HAA pans that are not lined with non-stick (these are usually my MSR pots) For non-stick I am a long-time fan of GSI pots. While I do use Ti pots occasionally, they generally blow for baking or pan frying (they just get too hot, too fast – and are too thin walled).

Sarah – Ti pots are bad for anything other than boiling water. Ti is a poor conductor of heat and Ti pots are very thin so I agree that you will get a hot spot with almost any stove and burnt food as a consequence.

Aluminium is very different – it is a very good conductor of heat and the pots are always much thicker which also helps the heat to spread around the whole pot. With the stove turned down really low, an aluminium pot does not get a hot spot.

Ah…but there is the rub: the stove must be able to be dialed down tightly – to a very low flame. Alcohol stoves are not that adjustable. To do it, one needs a remote stove. This of course isn't very UL ;-)

Even then though….it still needs to be watched.

Ah…but there is the rub: the stove must be able to be dialed down tightly – to a very low flame. Alcohol stoves are not that adjustable. To do it, one needs a remote stove. This of course isn't very UL ;-)

Even then though….it still needs to be watched.

How well does the Caldera Cone work for this using the Trail Designs simmer bands? How about the Starlyte with the carbon felt simmer disc?

–MV

My remote canister stove is less than 100g as is Roger's stove.
Alcohol stoves are so light I wonder if it is possible to make one with a low output dedicated to baking?

If your stove is too hot or the flame is too narrow, then just use a flame spreader made out of a steel can lid. Punch a few holes in it near the outer rim.

With a really small stove flame, you can probably use a lid of about 2-inch diameter. For a medium stove flame, maybe 3 inches.

–B.G.–

Just DO NOT use a heat diffuser with a canister stove. The chances of wrecking your stove are very, very high as it increases the heat.

^^^

Curious here …

Are you saying the heat radiating back from the diffuser damages the burner head, piezo, or supports, or that it will "overheat" the canister?

And (not trying to be contentious), is this from first hand experience, or something you heard, or … ?

Thanks.

there is a documented thing called teflon flu – fumes from overheated teflon can cause symptoms in people. I refuse to have teflon pans in the house. also space heaters, blow dryers, or brand new furniture treated with Scotchguard. all outgas some bad chemistry (PTFEs) that makes BPA look benign. The hair gadgets and heaters have teflon coating as well. I do have birds and I prefer to avoid the chemicals wherever possible….

The heat diffuser they sell at Packit Gourmet did well for me doing some baking but I used it on a remote canister stove.

"Just DO NOT use a heat diffuser with a canister stove. The chances of wrecking your stove are very, very high as it increases the heat."

Ha. A flame spreader isn't going to hurt the stove burner at all. Not a bit. Now, if you were stupid, you could overheat the fuel canister, but it takes only the tiniest bit of aluminum foil to avoid that problem.

–B.G.–

I personally destroyed a Primus stove :-P Melted it, slumped it, pot supports gone. So yes, it happens.

Sarah –
Sorry to hear that.
That is a lot of heat.

Thanks for the info.

I need to find that stove! It is buried in one of my bins ;-) So is my warped Ti pot…lol!

My left wrist still carries a scar from burning myself on an overheated canister stove, back in yeesh….summer of 2003? I touched a pot support on accident while in the Olympic Mountains. Clipped my wrist. Hoooooooo….yeah, that woke me up.

I'll be the first to admit I treat my gear hard and do things I know I shouldn't even try ;-)

I've used my homemade ("tin can" top with slots cut in it) many times on my vargo ti stove. No problems what so ever. I do keep the flame very low, too low to properly bake at first.

Thanks, everyone.

I tried out the following set up:
Kmart grease pot
Fat Daddio 4" x 2" round cake pan
Trangia burner with simmer ring
Clikstand pot/burner holder

I did three tests using the equipment listed above. For two of the tests, I used the Trangia simmer ring to lower the flame and the baking took a loooong time (40 min., 1 hr. 12 min., respectively) and the results were pretty lousy (more like a steam baking result, i.e. the biscuits weren't crispy). It seemed to me that the burner was getting overheated because the pot was too close to the grease pot.

Recalling a post on some other forums for dry baking with a Trangia (http://www.trailspace.com/forums/camp-kitchen/topics/142872.html), I tried to mimic what they did, which was to use the burner full blast, but to have the pot raised fairly high (in the link, the user put the pot on the "legs" of the Trangia windscreen up as you would for using the frying pan set up, which raises the cooking pot). I did a final test where I used shepherd stakes to raise the pot several inches above the burner. The stakes fit nicely in the holes of the clickstand. The result: A very nice biscuit that baked in ~20 minutes.

I'm pleased with the results, but not thrilled about having to add some stakes to my baking set up.

Does anyone else bake with a Trangia + clickstand? If so, got any tips?

Michael