MSR Windboiler – Wind Testing

Nice comparison.

Were the stoves completely out in the open or was a reasonable effort made to shield the stoves from the winds?

I ask because I think most people would be expected to make a reasonable effort to shield their stoves behind a pile of rocks, the leeward side of their tent, etc

Remote canister and white gas stove users understand this and use the soft aluminum wind shield/reflector when running their stoves.

I was recently watching a TNF film about Conrad Anker climbing ice in Montana. It was REALLY cold, but it looked like they were using a MSR canister stove in their tent – probably a Reactor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOm6Nktxof4

I get the impression that these types of stoves have a strong following with the Alpine/Mountaineering crowd.

Jeff,

That’s a fair question. I was on the leeward side of a large boulder.

I think the take away here is not so much that Jetboils will blow out but rather that the Jetboil’s burner is open. No matter what the wind velocity is, you’re always losing at least some of your heat to the wind with a Jetboil. Even with moderate winds, I noted a marked change when using a Jetboil in terms of both time to boil and fuel consumption.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

I have never seen the Wind Boiler in action, but I have seen the Reactor. Compared to my Jetboil, the Reactor appears to be impervious to the wind.

I have never seen the Wind Boiler in action, but I have seen the Reactor. Compared to my Jetboil, the Reactor appears to be impervious to the wind.

I was really curious when I got the Windboiler to see if it was as good as the Reactor. Based on my high wind testing (see the video in my original post), I’d say that the Windboiler is just as good as the Reactor. If it’s not as good, then the difference is so subtle that I could’t detect it.

Note that I couldn’t even get the Jetboil to boil water; it kept blowing out.

I was a little worried that the Windboiler might not be as good as a Reactor because you can see the jet and air intake ports underneath the windscreen, but, no, it works very well in wind.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

I’ve expanded my post on wind testing with the new MSR Windboiler.

I’ve added a table of comparative weights and prices among the current Jetboil and MSR 1.0 liter (or less) capacity integrated canister stove offerings. See Appendix II.

I’ve also added a more in depth discussion of how many boils you’d lose out on using a Jetboil vs. a Windboiler. See Appendix I.

There’s also a discussion of when and why fuel efficiency matters in the main body of the post.

I’ve added some videos in Appendix III that show the lighting of the stove in windy conditions. Definitely more difficult than in still air, but doable. I had far more trouble lighting the Jetboil.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

The Windboiler sounds impressive, compared to its peers.

What I would really like to see now is a Windboiler compared to the best conventional canister stove with a windscreen that extends from a suitable distance above the canister to the top of the pot. I would expect that to be a lot lighter than the Windboiler, less expensive, quite wind resistant, and the windscreen extending up the pot should compensate a lot for the lack of a heat exchanger.

I am assuming that there is a location for the bottom of the windscreen that is high enough above the canister to be safe, yet low enough to shelter the burner head. Use a reflector disk on top of the canister if that is the best way to ensure safety.

–MV

I can't imagine that any stove with just a windscreen could possibly do as well as an enclosed burner stove.

HJ

I can't imagine that any stove with just a windscreen could possibly do as well as an enclosed burner stove.

I can carry a lot of fuel for the difference in weight between a Windboiler and a canister stove with a good windscreen.

–MV

"I can carry a lot of fuel for the difference in weight between a Windboiler and a canister stove with a good windscreen."

Well yes, but,

A.) your system will not perform as well in the wind and,

B.) you will contribute to Global Warming

; )

–

I'm going back and reviewing all of Jim's information carefully; I am increasingly impressed with the Windboiler. So far, it looks to me that you are paying about a 4-5 oz weight penalty (less than I initially thought) and there are some very real offsetting advantages that you need to consider.

–MV

Does anyone have any idea how the WindBoiler compares for carbon monoxide production?

–MV

I’m going back and reviewing all of Jim’s information carefully; I am increasingly impressed with the Windboiler. So far, it looks to me that you are paying about a 4-5 oz weight penalty (less than I initially thought) and there are some very real offsetting advantages that you need to consider.

There were two points I was trying to make with respect to fuel efficiency.

1. You normally won’t save weight by being more fuel efficient alone. You just can’t save enough weight that way to make up for a heavier stove. For example a JB Sol weighs about 11 oz an the MSR Windboiler weighs about 15 oz, a 4 oz difference. Now say that you save 1 g of fuel per 500 ml boiled, you boil twice a day, and you take a week long trip. You would need 14 g less fuel with the more efficient set up. 14 g is about 1/2 oz. Saving 1/2 oz in fuel will never make up for a stove that is 4 oz heavier.

2. You will save weight if you can avoid carrying the next largest size canister or carrying a second canister. The difference in gross weight between a 110g canister and a 225g canister is roughly 6 oz. If your 4 oz heavier stove is efficient enough to prevent you from having to carry a larger canister you’ve just saved 6 oz – 4 oz = 2 oz. Generally this type of weight savings are going to be on trips of 7 to 10 days. The Jetboil Sol retails for $120. The Windboiler retails for $130. Would I spend $10 to save 2 oz? I might.

Of course there are other factors besides efficiency to consider.
1. When it’s really windy, it’s hard to shelter a stove. Sure, in normal winds sticking your stove behind a log or rock usually is sufficient, but in high winds, it can be really hard to shelter a stove. A wind proof stove is nice to have for times like this. Particularly for those who spend a lot of time above treeline, this might be a nice feature to have.

2. Predictability. The Windboiler’s fuel consumption is going to be really consistent from trip to trip. It’s therefore pretty easy to figure out how much fuel you’re going to need. With a stove that requires fuel amounts that vary widely depending on the conditions, it’s harder to be precise in your fuel estimates, so you have to carry extra fuel “just in case.”

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

Jim,

Do you have any comments on fuel efficiency in mild conditions between the WindBoiler and a conventional canister stove with a suitable windscreen?

–MV

Does anyone have any idea how the WindBoiler compares for carbon monoxide production?

There’s more than cosmetic changes going on with the Windboiler’s burner. It looks the same from the top, but underneath, it’s a very different design from the Reactor. It has a much more controllable flame, and the carbon monoxide should be greatly reduced. I say “should” because I have no way of verifying the actual CO numbers. I can just a) look at the design and b) know that MSR is painfully aware of the CO problems of the Reactor and make an educated guess that they’ve cut CO.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

> Does anyone have any idea how the WindBoiler compares for carbon monoxide production?
They haven't sent me one for testing.
Guess they didn't like my measurements on the Reactor.

Cheers

Or just don't cook with a canister stove in your tent.

I was recently watching a TNF film about Conrad Anker climbing ice in Montana. It was REALLY cold, but it looked like they were using a MSR canister stove in their tent – probably a Reactor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOm6Nktxof4

I get the impression that these types of stoves have a strong following with the Alpine/Mountaineering crowd.

The stove shown at 3:10 is definitely a Reactor. Yes, those who do alpine style climbing and mountaineers do appear to consider the weight worth it. The Reactor puts out a lot of heat (9000 BTU) for snow melting and will work even in places where it is all but impossible to shelter the stove.

The Windboiler is stepped down a bit (7000 BTU) but still extremely effective in wind.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

Do you have any comments on fuel efficiency in mild conditions between the WindBoiler and a conventional canister stove with a suitable windscreen?

Even in absolutely still air, a conventional canister stove is never going to get the same fuel economy as a heat exchanger stove. This is why heat exchangers are used, to increase the transfer of heat.

In the case of the Windboiler, not only is a heat exchanger present, but also there is entrainment of hot exhaust gasses by means of the pot collar that forces the exhaust to flow up the sides of the pot, further increasing heat transfer.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

In the case of the Windboiler, not only is a heat exchanger present, but also there is entrainment of hot exhaust gasses by means of the pot collar that forces the exhaust to flow up the sides of the pot, further increasing heat transfer.

Unless that refers to at the very base of the pot I missed that part, and I still do not see it as I look at the various descriptions of the WindBoiler. Even without that the pot cozy on while heating/cooking is helpful.

One nice thing that is not commonly mentioned is the regulator valve. I know that a regulator valve is not unique, but neither is is universal.

Efficiency — while nice in the abstract, it seems to me to have minimal effect on weight except when it allows taking fewer fuel canisters. I doubt that happens on most trips for most people — a long weekend or less.

Note: none of this is to knock the WindBoiler — obviously a very nicely engineered piece of gear. I'm just trying to understand precisely what its role would be for me — under what conditions it is the lightest weight solution and/or under what conditions it enables things that other solutions do not.

–MV

Unless that refers to at the very base of the pot I missed that part, and I still do not see it as I look at the various descriptions of the WindBoiler.

You might want to read through Appendix II in my post on The 1.0L MSR Reactor. You’ll have to scroll down to get to the Appendix. I apologize for the scrolling, but Blogger/Blogspot does not support embedded html anchors.

I’m just trying to understand precisely what its role would be for me — under what conditions it is the lightest weight solution and/or under what conditions it enables things that other solutions do not.

Understood.

I would think that there are perhaps the following advantages:
1. Speed. You’re going to get a pretty fast boil with the WindBoiler.
2. Consistency. You’re going to get pretty consistent fuel use which makes for easy trip planning (in terms of fuel). Fuel consumption won’t vary due to wind (although of course it could vary with temperature, particularly if you’re melting snow).
3. Convenience. Everything for a solo kitchen set up is included except a spoon and an ignition source. Everything packs very very well with an unusually high level of quality and integration.
4. Windproofness. Pretty much the best in high winds stove that there is. It’s only peer is the Reactor. Short of gale force winds, you’ll probably be able to cook with a Windboiler. This might be particularly important to people who spend a lot of time above treeline, desert travellers (it’s always freaking windy in the deserts near me), big wall climbers, or anyone who travels in places with high winds – or – persons who travel in areas where it’s difficult to shelter a stove in lesser winds.
5. High efficiency. As I’ve outlined in my post on Wind Testing, there are times when a heavier but more efficient stove may prevent you from having to carry a larger or second canister resulting in weight savings. There may be other reasons to want efficiency, for example, when travelling in areas where there is a long distance between resupply points.

I suppose the first thing to do is to decide if you want an integrated canister stove. I’ve seen a lot of people on the JMT and PCT Facebook pages arguing in favor of an integrated canister stoves even though they were clearly not the lightest option. They liked them because they were low hassle on set up and fast to boil. They just wanted to eat at the end of the day and didn’t want to screw around with windscreens, pouring alcohol, etc. Attach the canister, light, and a couple of minutes later you’ve got boiling water. I suppose there’s something to be said for that.

If you were to decide that you in fact wanted an integrated canister stove out of all the possible stove choices out there, I would then evaluate the Windboiler as a possible choice. That’s how I would do it; you of course would be free to choose any methodology that makes sense to you. :)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

Jim,

Thank you for all of your information, here and in your blog, on the WindBoiler. Reading through all you have written has been quite helpful.

I'm still not sure about its role for me, but prior to your enlightening me I would not have even considered it.

–MV

If I can inform, then I’ve done my job. God willing, my blog gives one the information that he or she needs to make a decision.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

If anyone is following this thread, I have completed my review of the new MSR Windboiler.

It’s a good stove albeit heavy. Wind doesn’t even phase it. I was really impressed. I could run it on it’s lowest setting and it never faltered during wind gusts. I tested it out in a desert pass where it was seriously windy.

Here’s a link to the full review: the new MSR Windboiler.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

Jim, thanks for the comparison test. We need more of that for new gear.

BUT… I find all of those stoves way too "tall & tippy" for my taste.

A remote inverted canister setup with good windscreen is what I like. The canister can be body heat warmed and covered with a fleece or Refletex cozy until cooking is done.