Visited the new Arcteryx store in Portland

I'm no Arcteryx fan, but I'm not sure corporate greed is the best explanation for the lack of cinch cords.

Are you talking about the cerium hoody? If so, it has an excellent hood adjustment, but its just one & from the back. Some jackets have great hoods with no adjustment at all. Sounds like arcteryx (a company that makes great technical clothing, if costly) was trying to appeal to an urban market in portland. Plus, there are other more cottage-oriented shops in town too. Lucky you. Why all the scathe?

The Atom LT hoody used to not have hood adjustment but the new version does (and it works like a charm for me).

No scathe, just fact. To charge a high price for something that does not function properly is a rip off. Like I say, more companies have been doing this little trick. A year ago I was at the Sierra Trading Post with my brother. He really liked this puffy, lofty, down,shiny nylon jacket with a hood. It is nearing Xmas so I buy it as a gift for him. We go on a three mile hike together in the cold and when the wind picks up, it keeps blowing his hood off his head. The temperature is around 20 degrees with this wind. For the last mile and a half he has to use his hand to hold the hood down on his head. Now his hand is frozen so he has to keep changing hands out of his pockets to hold the hood. When we get back to the apartment we inspect the jacket and look for some sort of drawcord that maybe he did not notice. Nothing. I realized that Sierra Traders sales a lot of seconds or blemished items. We take it back and show them at Sierra trading post. They refund for the jacket and we look at jackets from Marmot, Mountain Hardware, etc and none of them have the cinch cords except this heavy duty parka from Mountain Hardwear that costs a fortune even with the Sierra trading post discount. We decide to go elsewhere to look and find him the perfect down parka with hood and cinch cord (drawstring and cord lock) from Golite which is now sadly going out of business. It is a great jacket, my brother loves it, and it actually was cheaper than the crummy jacket at Sierra Trading Post with no drawstring. It is not a scathe. The point is if you pay for something, the product features should actually work that you are paying for.

Dead bird is mostly an urban hipster brand around here

Now thats not to say that their products dont work just fine or that there arent folks who do very serious stuff with it (who usually get pro deals or are sponsored) … Just like TNF has those same gnarly users

But most folls here wear it while walking around the city or urban parks …

Recently ive been noticing korean tour buses full of korean tourists hiting the dead bird factory store, sufice to say they arent using em generally for the great outdoors

Personally i think the myth about dead bird being "the best" is dying … Many folks around here are commentinf about how you pay a large premium for something made in china

I own quite a bit of dead bird including several of the old made in canada pieces … So i use their gear just fine

But realistically its not better or worse functionally than any other major outdoor brand

And the dead bird branded store up here is the same … Its clearly a fashion boutique in the middle of the west end (literally hipster town) with little to do with the outdoors

Heres a few stories you might find humerous … All true

– at a dead bird sale an AZN man sees a rope bag, he shoves it towards his son and says "laptop bag!!!" … The poor dead bird sales associate is trying to explain its really a rope bag … The man is having non of it "its ahh-teh-licks bery guud bag for son!!!"

– at the dead bird factory sales 90% of the folks lined up are AZNs and most of em arent buying for the outdoors … The line ups stretch on for hours … Entire AZN families line up with their kids … The best is when an AZN grandma pushes her kid to run into the store and then runs after her shouting at the employess "must get kid !!!" To jump the line

– never ever get in the way of AZNs and their dead birds during these sales … I know several folks who have been trampled and pushed down … Dead bird sales are a full contact sport

– when AZNs buy dead bird at sales, they buy it by the armload … Which means theyll take 10+ pieces and walk around with em, call all their friends and family … And outfit the entire family with dead bird …. To be fair this is starting to happen at westcomb factory sales as well

– AZNs are very brand conscious for what they perceive to be the "best brand" … Mercedes, BMWs … And dead bird … And its the most fashionable outdoorsy brand to them (at least those who visit and live in vancouver)

By the way im AZN and im wearing a dead bird as i type this on my iphone at the base of the squamish chief

;)

Just in case anybody thinks im pulling their leg …

Entire AZN families camp out for dead bird sales in vancouver … It is literally a family event, the kids might get pushed in and the parents run after them

the mostly AZN lineup at a dead bird sale at 11 PM on a friday night … Its a social thing, the majority of the folks ive talked to in these line ups just want some "cool threads"

The korean tour bus in the far background … They literaly drive these tourists to shop at the dead bird factory store

As a side note … The used outdoor gear store in squamish often has older dead birds for sale, i saw a fleece there for $30 last week, those suckers costs 200$+ new

Some of the older finds might even have been made in canada

;)

I saw some Japanese tourists (didn't speak English) around here wearing some dead birds stuff. Is it a fashion trend in Asian countries as well?

Azns do some weird stuff man…

I'd bet that a good majority of arc teryx apparel is sold to urban yuppies who will never use the gear in challenging outdoor conditions. For any of these companies to be very successful on a large scale, they need to appeal to a much bigger market than the nitch of committed outdoorsy folk. But what's impressive about arc teryx (at least to me) is that a majority of their lineup is thoughtfully designed & purpose built for the mountains. What arc teryx does better than anyone is fit. They are pretty much the only company whose jackets don't lift at the hem on me when climbing (a couple of Rab's fit well, too) . Same with the pants, the articulation and tailoring makes for close fitting cloths that move with you. From pretty much any category, arc teryx has some of the best jackets (and best hoods)— light synthetic: nuclei, light down: cerium, windshirt—squamish, shell—alpha fl, softshell gamma MX. Living in outdoorgearsville USA, I've tried on way more gear than I care to admit, and without any conscious brand alliance, I think the arc stuff is consistently top of the pile.

OTOH, this impression:
– I once was thinking of getting a WS-softshell and compared one of Dead Bird with one of Mammut. The Dead Bird's was much better designed and made then the Mammut's. Enough to warrant the higher price of 330 € ? Well, that's for each individually to decide. Now, the WS from Mammut isn't also cheap at 200 €.
– I once watched my 5 year old GTX (XCR and Paclite)-shell under a microscope. The fabric of the XCR-parts showed no damage under the microscope; the fabric of the Paclite-parts showed only a few loose threads. Impressive as it is used with a heavy pack, saw glissade-training, crevasse rescue training, …

Last year or so, I had an e-mail conversation with some of their designers. One thing they told me is that even seemingly good designs are abandoned if they show an issue. OK, they have to say something like that to defend their decision, but contrary to most BS, their detailed explanation actually made sense.

Eric – I've seen the same scenes you described at the North Face Outlet in Berkeley. (well not the push the kid in the store trick, but similar behaviors otherwise). I always just figured they were buying the stuff by the armload to either sell it on Ebay or take it back to their home country and sell it there at a profit…maybe they are just buying for friends and relatives though…if so, I have done the same, so who am I to judge?

Exactly

Dead bird is the new north face

Keep in mind that the north face is one of the most used brands for the craziest stuff … Almost every everest documentary you see has TNF being used and worn

However no one these days puts TNF on a pedastal

Dead bird is going the same way, just a bit more upscale

As to fit, this is a really personal thing … Ive had dead birds that fit perfectly which i buy, and others that didnt fit well which i didnt

Ive had the same with other brands …

Keep in mind that patagucci often fits quite different from dead bird … Yet it is used for as much if not more of the gnar gnar in the mountains

As to durability … Dead bird makes some durable stuff and others thats not so durable

Ive blown through 3 dead bird harnesses in a bit over a year at one time …. And theyve told folks that their harnesses are good for 200 days on the rock, too bad

One of my partners blew through a dead bird cierzo with moderate alpine use in a week in the bugaboos, and hes a dead bird fan … I blew through the exact same pack years ago with moderate use as well

As i said i own quite a bit of dead bird as i usually get it for ~50% off

Its generally no better or worse than any other major outdoor brand for practical purposes

Now if were talking about the ability to wear it in social situations in vancouver, dead bird reigns supreme

I can get away with wearing dead bird to weddings here

Theres nothing really special about dead bird other than the marketing

;)

Well, don't you buy gear because it's functionall ? Then, what does it matter what brand it is (Dead Bird, TNF, Patagucchi, OR, MHW, …)?

It doesnt really matter what brand it is

If you look at the best athletes in the world they all use different brands … Some of em switch brands every now and then as well

There is nothing special about a "good" brand over another another "good" one except in the mind of the consumer

I suspect that if you look around TNF probably has the most sponsored athletes in the gnarliest places … And arguably the top alpinist in the world right now uses MH

It all personal preference … And the marketing departments that want to influence yours

Now what does matter for a brand is their warranty service and how they take care of customers !!!

;)

" Why all the scathe? "

factually .. because they've earned it.

he's not on some irrational rant full of untruths. it's a good example of what you can expect from people who have been hyped at, and then when they invest their limited time resources in something, and it turns out a cheese shop, they are peeved.
his peeved'ness was quite decent, but justified.

arcterx business model charges a huge premium for what is now only modestly good stuff. and if they know what they are doing, and have their production figured out, they should be making a killing.
now, i am all for a good killing now and again, as it makes for sport and keeps the rest of us motivated .. like the lottery perhaps.
so i do not begrudge them a profit margin , and i'm not even in the business of selling access to fake gods.
if you can take a fool's money, then it's ok .. i guess. but just count me out of the herd for that program.. eh ?

so then we have the actual issues with the hoods.
proper function of hoods has become sort of an issue this last few years.
we can find numerous example of poor hood designs. just a lack of management initiative in making something that works outside.
and then they shove this half baked caca off on the public.
on occasion, the public shoves back.
ohh, .. poor babies.

need a fun project ? go find a picture of a hoody that properly comes down around to gently cinch around the face and cover the forehead. sure, they are out there, but many, if not most, are of inferior design.
the orig poster has apparently seen enough of inferior design, and knows cloths for posers when he sees it.

is not just the disfunction caused by offshore production the is the problem. right her in north america we have Ibex producing an expensive lofted wool hoody ( @ $350 ) with as unworthy a hood as might be found in xhiangtingfu.
so maybe lack of intellectual effort and xhitty work is not a culturally economic phenom, but part of the human condition. i file it under "greed", as i define as "wanting what you have not earned, from others".

if arxterc was on the ball, and doing what it takes to stay on top, they would be monitoring such forums as this, and taking what measures are necessary for damage control and fixing their problems.
but they are not. they have fallen off the peak they once climbed, and they are falling like a rock.
if i was to predict their next move : they will launch a New Brand ! this time for sure !!! a brand designed by Real users and Famous guides and Hurt junkies. now, those folks are fun of course, and will gladly take corp money to do what they are going to do anyway (see – "making a killing" above ).

read the thread, and still disappointed by most hood designs (and balaclavas) i see out there.
ok, i'm done.

v.

"arcterx business model charges a huge premium for what is now only modestly good stuff. "
They charge high prices for sure, but just keep it simple so if that particular model suits you the best, just look if the extra price is worth it for you.
Yes, we not often see gear here on sale so full price has be paid more easily. Now, personally, I am aware that something costs a lot and I'm willing to pay that. I know it may be easier for me since I certainly can't complain about my wage but at the same time I only buy what I really use or plan to use (even if it's on sale and the price asked then is a steal; not needed is not needed) (I know people with higher wages then me still are always short on money because their spending habbit is much bigger then me or people to buy stuff on sale because the asking-price is just a steal and then that stuff ends in a closet to never see use).

Now, about a hood (or another feature), I thought such faults are obvious when trying or, when not being able to try, you could search for reviews. Then your money has not to be spend so then what is your problem ? It's their problem and if that means they go out of bussiness because they made too many of such faults or took bad decisions, too bad, that's life.

My next big purchase is a down puffy. Who makes em with a cinch cord?

I use the one on my synthetic, an old GoLite Coal, all the time.

Otherwise so much comes down to personal fit. We are lucky here to be able to try so much IRL.

Went to REI and they had several jackets with cinch cords. Some on the back of the hood which is weird. I hate to have to make a Yoga move to cinch up my hood, but they had some with the cinch cord on the collars also. I then slipped into Snow Peak. Loved the look of their single wall tent. There down jackets have cinch cords, but the loft only so-so and the price………$600.00 and made in China clearly on the tag. You can go over to the Mountain shop and buy the Feathered Friends Helios for only $455.00 and it has more loft than any jacket in this town and it is the budget model for Feathered Friends. …………..now back to designing my version of the wearable sleeping bag.

"My next big purchase is a down puffy. Who makes em with a cinch cord?"

Montbell, Mountain Hardwear, Feathered Friends, and I am sure many many others as well.

I think it's important to get one thing out of the way first: the clientele of a brand implies nothing about that brand. You have countless fat old men driving some of the fastest and most capable sports cars in the world. This doesn't mean those brands cater to those client (okay, well sometimes they do), nor does it mean those cars are any less capable. The same is true for gear. You will ALWAYS have people purchasing and using / wearing items not in the situations they were designed to be used, such as buying a mountaineering coat and walking around town in it. Be it because it's cool, because they only wanted one shell for both climbing and picking up the kids, who knows, but it implies nothing about quality or function.

That said, the thing about Arcteryx that I've found is they build very function specific pieces. Their lightweight items are intended to be lightweight (hence a lack of some cinch cords), their burly bullet proof items are meant to be that, etc. I've found that, aside from outsourcing the manufacturing from Canada to China (which in reality means nothing for quality, are Chinese people inferior to Canadian?), I've found them to cut no perceivable corners. They didn't include a cinch cord not because they're cheap, but because it was designed without one. Yes the items are pricey, but they're quality built, very well designed, stand the test of time, and most importantly, they're backed by the company. I've had issues on a couple of Arcteryx items and they were addressed without question and beyond my expectation, something that I can't say for TNF.

While I love my feathered friends sleeping bag, I've found I prefer the fit and finish of my Arcteryx down jacket to Feathered Friends hands down. The short torso length and rubbing of the zipper (under the neck) of the FF frustrated me to no end. The Arcteryx piece on the other hand fits well, has a more durable face fabric, and a great hood design. I for one don't mind paying the premium for their gear when it works well.

"I think it's important to get one thing out of the way first: the clientele of a brand implies nothing about that brand".

Very much so. Moreover I appreciate that they are trying to make highly functional gear that is good looking as well. Very often the two do not have to be mutually exclusive. With that comes for sure some other 'non-serious' users. I can not blame a brand if they design some lines to cater to that clientele as long as they keep the other (more hardcore) lines functional as well.

"I've found that, aside from outsourcing the manufacturing from Canada to China (which in reality means nothing for quality, are Chinese people inferior to Canadian?), I've found them to cut no perceivable corners."

Thank you. As long as the quality is there I don't care where gear is made. Happy they can earn some money there too.

Late at night and some Arcteryx fans pop out of the woodwork! I appreciate your views but the reality is the Feathered Friends product is superior to the Arcteryx. From the quality of the nylon, to the sewing, and the fill, the feathered Friends reign supreme! Maybe Backpacking Light testers can do the comparison for independent testing purposes.

The "quality" of dead bird, or any other brand, can be quite variable

For example one of my partners is a big dead bird fan, but even shell admit that quite a few of her pieces arent bery durable including a softshell that got a hole after one climb and merino thats getting holes after a few months

Their jackets are generally good, but ive had climbing partners whove taken them back for delamination … And theres a few BPLers whove also have had that issue

Theres a "halo" effect around dead bird thats going away with time IMO … For practical use its no better or worse than any good major brand …. And i own and use a decent amount of dead bird, and other brands

What i do find most interesting is folks willing to shell out a premium something thats made in china, bangledash, etc …. And then saying it doesnt matter because of the name

Now my camalots whichs i trust my life to and many of my carabiners are made in china, so i aint no dont buy china fanatic … But i try not to pay a premium for it either

Companies such as westcomb and canada goose make most of their goods in canada, so it aint a skill issue either

As to the "warranty" dead bird has the "practical lifetime" warranty that many other companies have … its fine but not exceptional like OR whose warranty is the stuff of legends …. EB, MEC, LL Bean all have better no questions asked warranties (note that none of these companies charge premium prices despite the better warranty)

Heres another funny story …. I went with my climbing partner, who owns alot of dead bird as its her favoritr brand, to the trendy hipster dead bird branded store in vancouver

Now this store has nothing to do with the outdoors, its basically a fashion boutique that caters to upscale "outdoorsy" urban dog walkers … Think one of those boutiques with trendy display tables

She browsed a few jackets, looked at the label and exclaimed "OMG its $$$$$$ and made in bangledesh!!!"

The staff were distinctly unimpressed and gave use most durty looks

To br absolutely fair bankbreaker had a store of the exact same nature a block down the street

Dead bird works fine if it fits you … But theres nothing special about it or any other brand

Its best when its 50% off naturally

;)

"Companies such as westcomb and canada goose make most of their goods in canada, so it aint a skill issue either"

It isn't only the presence or absence of skills in itself, but also the number of people with those skills that is important. Now, the argument I've heard (and maybe it's just marketing talk) is that when they still were a small company, they could find all the skilled workers they needed in Vancouver. But, as a larger company now, they can't find them only there anymore and so need to outsource. No idea if it makes sense.
What I do know is this: when they still were only a Vancouver-production company and you were interested in a certain piece that was out of stock, you could wait a long time (sometimes a very long time) before seeing it in stock again. Now that they outsource, supply-problems don't exist anymore.
Now, I wonder which direction Westcomb will choose ? They're still largely unknown overhere in Europe, so no large supply-problems, which means the production-lots can stay small enough. which means they can remain producing only in Vancouver. So, I wonder: will they stay small with production-only in Vancouver, or will they grow and then have to consider outsourcing ?