Anti-Drone !

"…but basically it involves transmitting a high power local signal that overwhelms the aircraft's receiver so that it can't hear the normal control."

Bob,
How many pounds of batteries would it take to create a 100 meter radius "dead zone"?
Or the distance of your choice, and how it might scale.

Hypothetically of course.

TIA.

Why does the power source need to be batteries?

The power demand is high, but it doesn't need to last very long, maybe only a few seconds. Plus, if the jamming power can be concentrated with a good antenna, the receiver can be desensitized without too much effort.

Many years ago I used to enjoy jamming the speed radar used by local police. Great fun with one lantern battery.

–B.G.–

I was thinking a simple handheld yagi and 5 watts would provide enough gain to overwhelm a drone's receiver…..

"handheld yagi and 5 watts"

That will get you started.

Then you just have to hope that the drone is not outfitted with a Hellfire missile.

–B.G.–

LOL , if the guys playing with drone in the wilderness have hellfire's, than I might just find another pursuit.

> How many pounds of batteries would it take to create a 100 meter radius "dead zone"?
That's not how you do it.

Take one battery and a high voltage SMPS. Charge up a 1,000V 0.1 uF capacitor to full charge. (Yes, they do exist).
Take one tuned yagi antenna pointed at the drone.
Using a high voltage relay, suddenly dump the 1 kV into a resonant coil (tuned beforehand!), and into the yagi antenna.

With any luck the resulting EMP will detonate the front end of the drone receiver. Yes, you do have to know what band the radio control will be on, but that is not hard to find out. There are only a few bands authorised.

The technique also works well on AM radios tuned to loud pop stations. FM is harder because you need a smaller cap, but persevere…

Um – I had better point out that this is of course all entirely hypothetical, as such a transmitter would (of course) be quite illegal.

Cheers

Nuke the entire National Park from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

"Mark, I'm sorry that you misunderstood. I said nothing at all about cracking your digital encoding. That's what is necessary if I intended to take control of the aircraft.

The term that I used was jamming. That is a completely different thing, and it makes little difference whether your control signals are digital or analog or anything else. I'll explain it better sometime, but basically it involves transmitting a high power local signal that overwhelms the aircraft's receiver so that it can't hear the normal control.

Even GPS signals that are virtually uncrackable can be jammed.

–B.G.–"

That's even tougher as you'll need to be in the right position and be putting out a hell of a lot of power on exactly the right frequency.

It'd be easier to just ask the person to stop flying it near you.

The other thing is bringing these craft down in a uncontrolled descent is extremely dangerous.

Out in the wilderness there is a very small chance that it's likely to fall on someone's or damage property, but the vast vast majority of the quad/multi-copters are using LiPo cells, it wouldn't take much of a impact to crack the membrane separating the cathode and anode to start thermal runaway.
A LiPo fire especially on larger multi-cell packs like used on the large craft is extremely difficult to put out, throw water on it and it only makes matters worse.

It's also damaging someone elses property purely out of spite.
some of my multi-copters have thousands of dollars invested in them, FPV setup, cameras, lightweight frames, powerful motors, i have larger battery packs that have cost me well over $200 each.

I can understand that some folks don't want the noise when they're after the peace and tranquillity the outdoors offers, but then birds, flowing water, flapping tarps/tents, strong winds, animals and even other outdoors enthusiasts give off a fair amount of noise pollution.
It's also worth pointing out that 15min to 20min tends to be the sweet spot for battery weight and running times, so at worst it's 20mins noise out of a 16 hour day, not really much in that context and certainly not enough to risk forest fire and damaging someone else's property.

You also have no idea why they're flying, they may well be being used to search for a lost hiker or carry out assessments on paths or weather damage.

So although there is no justification for flying illegally, it might be more prudent to investigate why they are flying and ask the owner not to fly near you if it bothers you.

Bit less dramatic than causing criminal damage and starting a fire

"…the vast vast majority of the quad/multi-copters are using LiPo cells, it wouldn't take much of a impact to crack the membrane separating the cathode and anode to start thermal runaway.
A LiPo fire especially on larger multi-cell packs like used on the large craft is extremely difficult to put out, throw water on it and it only makes matters worse."

Seriously? I suspect this is hyperbole, but if it's not, you can't seriously be using this description of the incredibly dangerous properties of the drone that you are flying as the basis for an argument that other people shouldn't mess with you. The far more pressing concern is that YOU SHOULDN"T BE FLYING IT if it's really this dangerous.

Wow! Did someone on BPL just refer to " birds, flowing water, strong winds, and animals" as "noise pollution" ?
Really??

"Seriously? I suspect this is hyperbole, but if it's not, you can't seriously be using this description of the incredibly dangerous properties of the drone that you are flying as the basis for an argument that other people shouldn't mess with you. The far more pressing concern is that YOU SHOULDN"T BE FLYING IT if it's really this dangerous."

There is not much that can survive falling out of the sky from say 60 meters, or survive being shot with a shotgun as is being suggested.

If we as hikers start using that as a complaint against using quad/multi-copters then it's not much of a stretch for others to start shouting about hikers having flammable liquids, gas canisters etc

A gas canister stove is not going to survive too many 60m drops either.

Whenever we fly we only do so when conditions are safe (i.e. not in wooded areas during the very dry summer months here) and we always have at least 1 fire extinguisher close by.

"Wow! Did someone on BPL just refer to " birds, flowing water, strong winds, and animals" as "noise pollution" ?
Really??"

It's just me then?

I love being outdoors, the more wild the better, but i've walked beside raging rivers and not been able to hear myself think for 9 hours, was great for an hour or so, but i wish i'd taken ear plugs on that occasion.

I've camped in gale force winds where even wearing ear plugs the noise of the tent flapping kept me up all night.

We have a camp earlier in the year in northern Greece,there must have been hundreds of thousands of birds that were around our camp, again it was fantastic for about 1 hour, after that it drove us all crazy, ear plugs came to the rescue again.

Also had a camp up in Scotland that i made the mistake of going at the height of midge season, to make matters worse i'd agreed to meet up with a mate and chose a river as a small lake (more pond really) as a obvious location.
If i'd have seen on TV how many mossies there were i would not have believed it, literally a cloud around me ALL night
I had a mosquito jacket on so didn't get bitten too much, but the noise was a really annoying high pitched scream, again ear plugs to the rescue.

Had mice/rats keep us awake all night in a Scottish cabin, bloody things were squeaking like Britney Spears on helium ALL night.

Had barking dogs all night
Fighting cats
Foxes literally stuck in the middle of having sex (understandably the male screams like Bonnie Tyler with her finger caught in a door.

What else, wolves howling, badgers screaming all night, even a couple of flys caught in the tent i find annoying if i'm trying to sleep.

Generally if i'm camping i wear ear plugs every night, so yep there are many annoying noises in nature i find.

"Wow! Did someone on BPL just refer to " birds, flowing water, strong winds, and animals" as "noise pollution" ?
Really??"

Not to mention being able to hear ourselves think! It's so distracting!

Ken,

Just found another for the DNHW list.

(Though perhaps eligible for an online course in logic.)

TTFN.

"Not to mention being able to hear ourselves think! It's so distracting!"

A bit of noise some nights helps me get away from my thoughts as well, although generally i prefer quiet.

Not sure if English is your native language Peter, but in the UK at least "hear yourself think" is a phrase that is commonly used to express how noisy an environment is.

"Just found another for the DNHW list.

(Though perhaps eligible for an online course in logic.)

TTFN."

Not sure i understand Ken, what has the Department of National Health and Welfare got to do with the topic?

“Solution for a problem that doesn’t exist, i’ve never seen a quad-copter on any wilderness walk i’ve done.”

I wish.

Here’s a link to a video uploaded to YouTube http://youtu.be/rZ4si-Mn5Ho that was filmed by a Rc helicopter strapped with a GoPro at one of my favorite spots in the local mountains. This is in a National Forest about a 1/4 mile from a designated Wilderness boundary. Further up the trail into the Wilderness, there’s a wonderful lake set in a granite bowl with a 1K ft. ridge encompassing the back side of the lake. A couple of years ago while traversing said ridge I watched some yahoo, probably the same guy that made this video, making passes over the lake. I stopped and watched the whole flight hoping to see the d@mn thing crash.

After that trip I fantasized about whipping out some cool sonic death ray laser on the obnoxious thing, vaporizing it, and getting a standing ovation from nearby witnesses. Then a girl in a bikini comes walking up with an award, oh never mind….

I did stop at the Ranger station on my way home and explained what I had seen. The representative I spoke to didn’t seem to care.

"Solution for a problem that doesn't exist, i've never seen a quad-copter on any wilderness walk i've done."

Again, maybe an online logic course would help.

"Nuke the entire National Park from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

I almost spit out my apple cider. I just read nearly that same post on my mountain biking forum on how to remove a dead deer from the trail.

"Not sure if English is your native language Peter, but in the UK at least "hear yourself think" is a phrase that is commonly used to express how noisy an environment is."
Actually, the phrase for a noisy environment is "can't hear yourself think", the opposite of "hear yourself think".

Yeah, I was writing that comment at the same time you were writing yours about not being able to hear yourself think.

Nevertheless, referring to the sounds of nature in wild areas as "noise pollution" is really disingenuous. If you don't like the sounds, you can put ear plugs in, but that's where those sounds belong. That's less obviously true with drones (certainly in US national parks, where they're currently banned, and although the FAA rules have been changing very rapidly, they're probably considered illegal in any of our protected wilderness areas as well.

Edit:

That said, the comment about them being used for SAR is definitely valid, and hopefully coordinated drone use could help save some lives in the future.

"Just found another for the DNHW list."

Do not hike with list? How exclusive is this list?

Is it possible for an entire area to be "jammed" constantly so that drones would be rendered useless? Although, I'm guessing it is impractical due to the size and relative low use.

"I wish.

Here's a link to a video uploaded to YouTube http://youtu.be/rZ4si-Mn5Ho that was filmed by a Rc helicopter strapped with a GoPro at one of my favorite spots in the local mountains. This is in a National Forest about a 1/4 mile from a designated Wilderness boundary. Further up the trail into the Wilderness, there's a wonderful lake set in a granite bowl with a 1K ft. ridge encompassing the back side of the lake. A couple of years ago while traversing said ridge I watched some yahoo, probably the same guy that made this video, making passes over the lake. I stopped and watched the whole flight hoping to see the d@mn thing crash.

After that trip I fantasized about whipping out some cool sonic death ray laser on the obnoxious thing, vaporizing it, and getting a standing ovation from nearby witnesses. Then a girl in a bikini comes walking up with an award, oh never mind….

I did stop at the Ranger station on my way home and explained what I had seen. The representative I spoke to didn't seem to care."

If the guy/girl was flying in a area he wasn't supposed to be flying then there is no way i'm going to say anything to defend him/her.

I do think it's important to put context into the opinion though.
How many hours do you walk a year, and that's 1 single time a flying craft has bothered you.

I don't know what it's like in your area, but in the UK it's rare i finish a hike without seeing some fire scar, toilet paper, doggy poop bag (often tied to trees for some reason, like dog poop on your shoe isn't bad enough they want to put it at head height) or what really drives me crazy, litter.

Trail erosion, litter, vandalism, graffiti are all problems that i experience a LOT more than buzzing heli or multi-copters.

The other problem i have is the "advice" on how to deal with them, if someone is flying a craft illegally then the proper authorities need to be informed, wilfully damaging someone's property is no solution even tongue in cheek.

As i say for me personally i don't see it as a real world problem.

"Yeah, I was writing that comment at the same time you were writing yours about not being able to hear yourself think.

Nevertheless, referring to the sounds of nature in wild areas as "noise pollution" is really disingenuous. If you don't like the sounds, you can put ear plugs in, but that's where those sounds belong. That's less obviously true with drones (certainly in US national parks, where they're currently banned, and although the FAA rules have been changing very rapidly, they're probably considered illegal in any of our protected wilderness areas as well.

Edit:

That said, the comment about them being used for SAR is definitely valid, and hopefully coordinated drone use could help save some lives in the future."

Reread my post and it came across as a bit rude, sorry that was not my intention, being a Brit living in Greece my daily life entails miscommunication from expressions that don't translate well.

My point with the noises was that it's all relative.
One bird singing for 30 mins is fantastic, 500 birds screaming their little lungs out for 2 hours isn't so great.

Again i think it's important to put the nuisance of quad/multi/heli-copters into perspective.
How many times do other hikers "spoil the moment" be it giggling drunkards in a tent 50 meters away, snorers in a hut, that bloke that follows you for miles and hasn't shut up for more than 5 seconds.

To me these are things i experienced several times this year, i've not yet seen a heli/quad/multi-copter on any of my hikes though, which is a shame because i find these things interesting.

It seems as though the authorities in the USA are on top of this, if the wardens/rangers aren't willing to do anything then it seems logical that they don't think it's a problem.

One last thing.
Lets say you see a quad-copter, it's hovering away about 50m from your position, being outraged you pull out you anti-copter pen and zap it out the sky.
How do you know that copter doesn't have permission to fly there?
Many scientific studies are using these devices to scan areas, all because it's a multi-copter spoiling your "moment" in the wilderness it doesn't mean it's up to no good.

I've helped build multi-copters for many companies that use them responsibly and for services that are good, please don't tar all of us quad/multi/heli-copter fliers with the same brush, the vast vast vast majority are responsible law abiding enthusiasts.

I have many many hours and thousands of dollars in some of my devices, i fly them responsibly and only where i have permission, the only irresponsible fliers i've heard about were using cheap toy quad-copters.
So as i say please do not tar us all with the same brush.

Some of us hikers are irresponsible jerks, some quad/multi-copter pilots as well, it's the same in every walk of life.

"Again, maybe an online logic course would help."

Haven't experienced any copters while hiking = a problem that doesn't exist to me
Seems as logical as it can get Dave.

As i say i think it's important to put them into context, having 1 or 2 copters fly near enough to hear them once a year doesn't seem like much a problem to me

If people are starting to get injured by them, batteries setting fire to vast areas or they're bothering folks several walks a year then fair enough.

As it is it's a argument about a problem that could possibly happen.

If we are talking about anything that's slightly, remotely possible maybe we could talk about my future marriage to Monica Bellucci next :)

"Do not hike with list? How exclusive is this list?

Is it possible for an entire area to be "jammed" constantly so that drones would be rendered useless? Although, I'm guessing it is impractical due to the size and relative low use."

Thanks for the clarification Jack

Although i can't say as i fancy the idea of walking with or spending any time with anyone who's so judgemental as to write a person off from a single post, so it's probably for the best.

Blocking vast areas would be logistically impossible, you'd need vast antennas, high power amplifiers and they'd need to cover a very wide spectrum of frequencies.
Even then i have older setups that could easily get through on another frequency.

Again though, to what means, to stop a couple of fliers a month buzzing around for 15mins.

My very petite 50kg Mrs farts more than 15 mins a day, to me THAT's a bigger problem

I imagine a drone is much quieter than a passenger jet flying overhead. And far less frequent.

"Is it possible for an entire area to be "jammed" constantly "

I suppose that this is possible, but it would require a lot of power. Plus, it would likely disturb other communications in that area.

–B.G.–

> Haven't experienced any copters while hiking = a problem that doesn't exist to me
Seems as logical as it can get Dave.

It's all in the details. Clever how you add "to me" in when you rephrase it.

> Although i can't say as i fancy the idea of walking with or spending any time with anyone who's so judgemental as to write a person off from a single post, so it's probably for the best.

Again, details. It was a full four posts before you made the DNHW list*.

* To Jack, it's pretty exclusive so far. Maybe six or seven. It's also more conceptual than anything else.