Electrolyte needs and real food

"We were doing high mileage, at race pace, for up to 12 days per race"

How many miles, at what pace? Those parameters would definitely impact how much food/day, and what its composition would be.

I must caveat that adventure racing is a sport where the race continues 24hrs/day, and part of the strategy for racers is *when* and *if* they will rest. So what is expedient for that sport is probably not advisable for "normal" thru-hiking, because it's really a short-term strategy that could make you unhealthy in the longer term.

That said, the reasons for our "food pyramid" should be fairly obvious. Going at your maximum sustainable level for +/- 20hrs/day, for several consecutive days, means you need a LOT of calories! You also need caffeine to help keep you awake while hiking/biking/paddling through the night. I can remember falling asleep while walking at about 3am — literally (my body would fall asleep for a second between steps, and my foot hitting the ground would jerk me awake again!).

Sugary junk foods give you a quick boost and taste great, which encourages you to eat when your body is exhausted and rebelling against virtually everything. If someone is a finicky type who can't eat sugar because it makes them "crash", then they are too delicate for adventure racing, and would be well advised to choose another sport. Ditto for those whose bodies are a "temple" of organic whole foods — adventure racing will loot and pillage that temple!

So we'd eat candy bars (all 3 food groups in one tidy package!), sugary granola bars, high-fat snacks like nuts/chips, and some protein added in. Many would also use sports drinks/malto (I didn't because they upset my stomach). Our view was, "whatever gets the job done"… but it WASN'T healthy!

Taking midpoint of American College of Sports Medicine recommendations for Na and K supplementation in sports drinks and using some food labels to do some crude what-ifs, let's assume you want to get around 400 mg of sodium and 80 mg of potassium along with your ~ 250 calories.

If you ate 250 calories of raisins (~ 80 g), you'd get ~ 600 mg of K, but very little Na (my raisin bag says zero, but there's a little).
If you ate 250 calories of salted cashews (a little more than 40 g), you'd get ~ 250 mg of K and ~ 200-250 mg of sodium (depending on how salted).

Whatever ratio you eat, you'll get plenty of K, but even if you eat just the nuts, you won't get to the ACSM Na target. As is almost always the case, the challenge for real food-eaters is to get enough Na.

Whether you really *need* that much Na will depend on a lot of variables. In practice, I generally do OK with a mix of raisins and nuts, but there are several alternatives to get more, other than just adding more salt (regular salt, not the lite salt that swaps in K for half the Na). An ounce of sun-dried tomatoes (not the ones in oil, which would be hard to snack on) has about 70 calories and nearly 600 mg of Na (plus lots of K). An ounce of parmesan cheese has a little more than 100 calories and around 450 mg Na. An ounce of jerky has a few more calories, with over 600 mg of Na (and a decent amount of K).

A few suggestions for variety to follow, most likely tomorrow, but I like that sweet potato leather idea, Valerie! It'd be interesting to see how much salt could be added to it and still have it taste good.

Cheers,

Bill S.

Bill,
Could you really eat sweet potato leather after a hard day of hiking. I'm asking this because I got into drinking Malto after not being able to eat such yummy foods as PNB M&Ms. I can't imagine trying to down something like sweet potato leather.

"Could you really eat sweet potato leather after a hard day of hiking?"

I *think* I could, but I won't know for sure until I've tried it!

But I don't go as hard as you do. Traveling at your pace, my range of food choices would be narrower.

Bill S.

I do think it's possible to eat high calorie meals that aren't super processed and still are highly to moderately nutrient dense (especially as compared to junk foods).

For example, want a crap load of caloric sugars, along with a boat load of potassium and many other food based minerals, drink some coconut water concentrate syrup.

Romano cheese, easier to fully digest than Parmesan (at least in my experience, i can't do most cow dairy, but i can do most sheep and goat dairy no problem). Or blend soft goat cheese with whatever less processed sugar of your choice, coconut palm sugar, sucanat, maple syrup, etc.

Goat milk powder with whatever. Then as others have mentioned you have the various nuts.

The trick is to get a combo of more highly digestible, more nutrient dense, and high calorie foods or combos. My body doesn't find most junk foods easily digestible and/or agreeable.

I've noticed when hiking and eating, i can only eat certain foods otherwise i will feel sluggish. For example, i learned that the Trader Joes Savory Rice Crackers, Multiseed with Soy Sauce (first ingredient brown rice), does my body good, in that provides energy without weighing me down or feeling like crap. But, eat a bunch of cashews, which normally are good for me, and i don't feel as well during and after. Course, this isn't high intensity, 24/7 cross fit type stuff.

One of my favorite highly digestible, more nutrient dense, and high calorie hiking foods is ground amaranth mixed with pureed figs and dates all cooked in water, then dehydrated, dipped in extra virgin coconut oil, and then doused in salt and goat milk powder.

Lot's of varied nutrition, lot's of calories, fairly easy to fully digest, and imo pretty tasty.

"I'm trying to imagine a 10-hour hiking day eating 10-20 Powerbars. Does not sound very attractive to me, and does sound expensive."

But at least you wouldn't have to bring TP.

This has been a most interesting thread to follow. But I must say that after going on 3 full pages of elaborate to highly elaborate approaches to get the necessary electrolytes from "real food", I feel ever more fortunate to be able to just pop few oz. of homemade Perpetuem in a 12 oz. Nalgene, enough to make a triple strength slurry, add 1/2 tsp of salt to my water bottle, and continue on my way without tying up my stomach digesting complex foods, thereby drawing blood from the working muscles
to the stomach/small intestine. I have always felt best on the move with an empty stomach, and could care less about the sensual pleasures of solid food when moving. I prefer to get my "real food" and some "unreal food" at either end of the day, when the legs are resting and the body can concentrate its resources on repair and replenishment of glycogen stores. Also, it allows the heat from the thermogenic process to be used to help keep you warm in your bag, instead of flaring off uselessly during the day, and possibly contributing to hyperthermia in hot hiking conditions. I take a Ca/Mg supplement midday, and get the remainder of my electrolytes at breakfast and dinner. Admittedly, this is not likely to appeal to very many, even most. But if you care about simplicity, I have yet to find a simpler approach. It is also a much more precise way to calculate the amount of Na, Ca, and Mg you are getting.

Tom,

1) How do you make your homemade Perpetuem?

2) Have you ever considered also taking a recovery drink at lunch or at the end of the day?

–MV

"I'm trying to imagine a 10-hour hiking day eating 10-20 Powerbars. "

Assume 3000 calories a day for intake. (Body fat will do supply the rest, if you are fit.)
Assume 10 hours on the trail.
Assume 400 calories for breakfast, 600 calories for dinner, and 200 for a pre-sleep snack.
That leaves 1800 calories for the 10 hours on the trail.

I eat the PowerBar "Harvest" line bars – at 9,11, and 1 for 750 calories.
Then 2 oz of potato chips for 300 calories.
Another Harvest bar for 250.
Then 2 oz of Chex Party mix for 300.
And a final Harvest bar at 250 at 7 pm. (Afternoon snacks are more frequent.)
That totals 1850 calories.

You could "mix and match" any number of trail snacks to accomplish the same thing.
You could eat less, more frequently.

So rather than hyperbolizing at "10-20 Powerbars", read the labels, do the math. Take more than you need to feel "safe", then cut back by the amount you carry home. Most importantly, get on the trail and figure out what works for you.

NBD.

I don't think my take on it is elaborate but yeah…others here do overthink it ;-)

"1) How do you make your homemade Perpetuem?"

4 oz of maltodextrin to 1/2 oz. of whey protein. Simple as that for days up to 14-15. I get the rest of my energy during the day from stored glycogen and body fat. If I were doing Malto miles, the amounts would go up, but the proportions would remain the same. Also, more food at either end of the day. Currently, I carry 18.5-19 oz. of food for trips up to 9 days. I figure I could get away with this up to about 2 weeks. After that, I would have to carry more food, as I would be out of safe body fat supplies.

"2) Have you ever considered also taking a recovery drink at lunch or at the end of the day?"

Yes A recovery drink at the end of the day is my other "unreal food". 1.5 oz. maltodextrin, .5 oz. whey protein, and 1 oz. Nido.

"Currently, I carry 18.5-19 oz. of food"

Sounds like you have it pretty well dialed in — if that amount of food provides the 3000 calories you mentioned previously you are doing better than 150 calories per oz — something a lot of folks struggle with.

–MV

"3 full pages of elaborate to highly elaborate approaches to get the necessary electrolytes from "real food"

Or you could take Sarah's approach (basically same as what I started out advocating) – some regular food such as dried fruit (or a ton of other options, since most real foods have decent mineral profiles other than sodium) plus something salty and you're done. The elaboration is just to show via the actual numbers that if you eat real food you *don't* need to worry about potassium (or calcium or magnesium).

"better than 150 calories per oz — something a lot of folks struggle with."

You're not getting north of 150/oz with carbs or protein. You've gotta add some fat, and relatively unadulterated. Either nuts, powdered coconut milk, or some straight fat sources such as butter or olive oil, right?

Back to closing the loop on real food sources. Nuts, dried fruit, and salty hard cheeses are the easiest that met your preferences, and since there are many different kinds of each, it can even provide some variety. If you feel like you want something other than that and you're so inclined, you can use an inexpensive food grinder to make fruit, nuts and other simple ingredients into various kinds of bars (with or without added salt). Granola's traditionally breakfasty, but can also be very nice for snacking. You're right that chips take up a lot of space, *if* you don't crush 'em first. But they pack pretty well if they're crushed, they still provide that crunch that many people crave, there are lots of kinds out there (I like blue corn), and they can deliver a lot of calories (from fat) and salt while doing fine with the rest of the minerals. Nido, hummus, black beans, loaded potatoes, e.g., are not traditional trail-snacking foods, but an aliquot into a snack bag, given some time to mix and hydrate (maybe with hot water from breakfast for the beans or potatoes) can then be slurped down very quickly and without any further unpacking. With an inexpensive dehydrator, you might well discover other things that work well for you. I recently made a red lentil soup that dried into tasty, crumbly chunks I could either eat straight up, like chips, or rehydrate in a few minutes in cold water. It was good enough I ate it all up in two days at home (with and without coconut milk), and was easy enough on my stomach that I had no problem when I tried eating it shortly before a pretty hard bike ride. Since I tend to keep breakfast and dinner simple, too, pretty much anything I take backpacking can become a snack, with a little planning. Hope you find some of those ideas helpful.

Cheers,

Bill S.

"Sounds like you have it pretty well dialed in — if that amount of food provides the 3000 calories you mentioned previously you are doing better than 150 calories per oz — something a lot of folks struggle with."

If I said 3000 calories I misspoke. The calorie count of my 18.5 oz. is ~2200-2300, depending on daily variation to avoid boredom, with ~1200-1250 of that as CHO, 270-280 as PRO, and 750-800 as FAT. That works out to ~127 calories/oz. I assume I need ~4000 calories/day, and get the rest from body fat. As a percentage of my carried food, CHO provides ~55% of the calories, which works out to ~30% of the 4000 calorie total. I figure that my fat to carb ratio hiking at 2-2.5 mph is about 65% to 30%, with another 5% coming from protein, and I design my diet accordingly. Oddly enough, the biggest problem I have had to solve is getting enough fiber while still maintaining those ratios. I have finally achieved 20-25 grams of fiber, which is not optimal, but sufficient to keep me from $h!tt!ng Power Bars. Roman Dial once remarked that we pack our insecurities, which I consider a real insight. I have endeavored to apply it to my food as well. BTW, I am fortunate enough to live with a truly gifted cook and author of four cookbooks, so I am no stranger to excellent, healthy, "real food". It is just that I don't feel the need to take it into the Sierra. I am there for other reasons, and a few days off my usual diet isn't the end of the world.

On a related note: If you want to see a truly sophisticated approach to this subject, along with a recipe for homemade Perpetuem, check out Malto's recipe and other diet information. He has taken it to a much higher level, and proved its worth in a sub 100 day PCT thru hike.

Would people find it interesting to take one or two diets based on things like maltodextrin, whey protein powder, and electrolyte pills, make up a few of the simplest real food diets that offer similar nutrition, then compare them for cost, convenience, etc?

Bill S.

"If I said 3000 calories I misspoke."

I looked back thru my posts and can't find a reference to 3000 calories. If any of you could point me to it, I would appreciate it, because I'd like to go back and correct the mistake for the record. It sounded funny to me, because I can't remember ever having gotten to 3000 calories per day, even back when I was carrying several more ounces of food/day.

"Would people find it interesting to take one or two diets based on things like maltodextrin, whey protein powder, and electrolyte pills, make up a few of the simplest real food diets that offer similar nutrition, then compare them for cost, convenience, etc?"

It might be an interesting hypothetical exercise; but let it be noted that, at least in my case, the maltodextrin/whey protein is only used for when I am hiking and for a recovery drink to jumpstart the process of replenishing muscle glycogen. It accounts for ~800 or so calories of my carried food, out of a total of 2200-2300 calories. The rest is solid "real" and "unreal" food. I don't think anyone here is advocating for a diet comprised solely of maltodextrin, whey protein, and electrolyte pills. If I conveyed that impression, I apologize for my inarticulateness and herewith correct the record.

"I looked back thru my posts and can't find a reference to 3000 calories. If any of you could point me to it, I would appreciate it, "

I must have mis-remembered. On searching back I see that 3000 calories were mentioned by both Bill and Greg, but not by you. I think I must have been thinking of Greg's statement "Assume 3000 calories a day for intake. (Body fat will do supply the rest, if you are fit.)".

My apologies for the mis-remembering.

–MV

Thanks for the clarification, Tom. I would be interested to see what's in the malto/whey/electrolyte snack portion of your diet or Greg's, or others, and if others are interested as well, to engage in some comparisons to alternatives. Malto certainly beats dried fruit on calories/gram, just as whey does well in protein density. Maybe looking at other pros/cons would be illuminating.

Cheers,

Bill S.

"My apologies for the mis-remembering."

As a highly capable mis-rememberer, myself, I feel qualified to say that it doesn't merit an apology. When I first saw your post, I thought that I might well have said 3000 calories and misremembered it in one of my all too frequent senior moments.

But thanks for getting back to me, Bob.

"I would be interested to see what's in the malto/whey/electrolyte snack portion of your diet or Greg's, or others,"

Hi Bill,

Below is my reply to Bob Blean a few posts previous on this page. I am including my answers to both of his questions, because they involve malto and whey protein.

"1) How do you make your homemade Perpetuem?" Bob

4 oz of maltodextrin to 1/2 oz. of whey protein. Simple as that for days up to 14-15. I get the rest of my energy during the day from stored glycogen and body fat. If I were doing Malto miles, the amounts would go up, but the proportions would remain the same. Also, more food at either end of the day. Currently, I carry 18.5-19 oz. of food for trips up to 9 days. I figure I could get away with this up to about 2 weeks. After that, I would have to carry more food, as I would be out of safe body fat supplies.

"2) Have you ever considered also taking a recovery drink at lunch or at the end of the day?" Bob

Yes A recovery drink at the end of the day is my other "unreal food". 1.5 oz. maltodextrin, .5 oz. whey protein, and 1 oz. Nido.

"Malto certainly beats dried fruit on calories/gram, just as whey does well in protein density. Maybe looking at other pros/cons would be illuminating."

Yes, for pure energy efficiency when combined with dietary and body fat, I haven't come up with anything better. Not to say there aren't better ways out there. What is missing is micronutrients, fiber, and that subjective comfort factor. I suspect if we get into a comparative discussion, most will come down on the side of "real food". The other limitation to my approach is that it depends on body fat to a significant degree, and is not designed for very high mileage days or very extended hikes like the PCT. By my calculations, based on weighing myself before and after a trip, I have been able to make a rough estimate that, given my energy expenditure and approximate body fat loss/day, I could probably extend my trips to about 2 weeks without starting to metabolize the fat that protects my vital organs. For somebody like Malto, who is cranking out 30-40 mile days, the body fat would probably not last even a week. IIRC, he uses a lot more malto and protein(whey or soy I can't recall) in his mix, along with a lot of electrolytes, but also eats solid food.

I hope this helps. I'll be most interested to see what happens if we do get a comparative discussion going.

My concerns with this approach are weight and bulk.

I use that approach in the gym — water the first hour, home made exercise drink (CHO, electrolytes) the second hour, and a recovery drink when done. That works well as (as long as I allow for the calories in my day's intake, not just add them).

Similarly, I use that sort of thing on 25 mile day hikes and it works very well. The only minor glitch is social — if I am with a group I feel strange when everyone else want a sit-down lunch to eat solid food. All I do is drink some of my recovery drink and I'm good to go. So I wait.

Since they work so well for me, and since long backpacks are arguably as athletic as a gym workout, I keep trying to see how best to fit in there. If you just extrapolate what I do on day hikes the result is too bulky and too heavy. Consider trying to get 250 calories per hour for a 10 hour day that way. That's 2500 calories and almost 25 ounces — both figures over Tom's total food for the day, and you still have not included the recovery drink. Looked at another way, 150 calories per ounce (better than many of us do) x 1.5 lbs = 3600 calories per day. This plan leaves you with 1100 calories (minus the recovery drink) for breakfast and supper — that might be OK, but the problem is you are already overweight before starting on that 1100 calories.

I was reading something by Malto saying that he alternates hours, meaning he is using something more calorie-dense for half the hours. Whether that is enough or not, if drinking my calories while hiking is going to work for me I need to come to grips with the bulk and weight issues.

One good thing is that including some whey protein is an efficient way to provide protein. If you believe workout rules of thumb, you should be consuming a number of grams of protein that is 75%-100% of your body weight in pounds. (E.g. a 180# man should be consuming 135-180 grams of protein per day.) That's hard to do with ordinary backpacking food.

–MV

"If you just extrapolate what I do on day hikes the result is too bulky and too heavy. Consider trying to get 250 calories per hour for a 10 hour day that way. That's 2500 calories and almost 25 ounces — both figures over Tom's total food for the day, and you still have not included the recovery drink."

It doesn't work out that way, Bob. Remember, the malto/whey is designed to supply enough carbs to burn body fat, which will provide you with the majority of your calories. In my diet, I am using only enough malto/whey(4.5 oz.), about 460 or so calories, to support the metabolism of a little over three times that number of calories provided by body fat. The malto will be supplemented by muscle glycogen if that is not enough, up to the point where I run out of muscle glycogen. So far, I have never bonked, so I'm pretty certain I have never depleted it all. I have another ~800 calories of carbs available at breakfast and dinner to either replenish muscle glycogen overnight or, in the case of breakfast, directly supply glucose to the brain and working muscles as it is absorbed into the bloodstream in the small intestine. The key is having enough carb derived glucose/glycogen to drive the metabolism of fat, and those 3 sources seem to have worked well for me. Again I emphasize that I am not a high mileage hiker. If I were doing 25 miles/day I would carry more food in general, and more malto/whey in particular, and most likely end up with somewhere in the range of 1.5-2 pounds of food. I'd have to sit down and do some calculating, so don't hold me to those numbers.

I hope this clarifies what I'm getting at.