Electrolyte needs and real food

75% HRR is nowhere near LT — in fact 75% HRR is commonly suggested as a nice conservative pace for a novice marathoner to run. No novice marathoner runs anywhere near LT if they want to finish (although I understand winners do). Someone in reasonable condition should be able to sustain 75% HRR indefinitely, and 70% is quite conservative.

I sometimes track this (with a heart monitor) as I hike. When I do, I commonly hike at 70% HRR — which most would consider a "recovery rate" effort. If I do not pay attention it can drift up to 75%, at which point I deliberately slow down a bit. Definitely nowhere near LT — that is more like 85%-90%, depending on how well conditioned one is.

Your assumed 60 bpm resting heart rate seems high to me if you mean a true resting rate (before you get out of bed in the morning) and you are in good condition.

–MV

"Your assumed 60 bpm resting heart rate seems high to me if you mean a true resting rate (before you get out of bed in the morning) and you are in good condition."

Etc, etc …

All numbers expressed should be viewed as examples, not absolutes, especially when it comes to heart rates.

"All numbers expressed should be viewed as examples, not absolutes, especially when it comes to heart rates."

I agree — giving a number of bpm is totally useless — any value is overwhelmed by individual body differences and differences in conditioning. Heart rate percentages are much more useful; I happen to think that %HRR is more useful than %HRMax, but either is much better than a raw heart rate.

Also do not assume that any of the common ways of estimating HRMax are any good. 220-age is particularly poor.

–MV

"For example, my peculiar system doesn't like food for the first 2 hours in the morning; if I do eat during that time, I invariably feel very nauseated…so I just don't eat until later. This in no way seems to affect my hiking. In fact, I went from Guitar Lake to the summit of Whitney in 2:58 with zero food and only 2-3 sips of coffee. I felt great."

Well done, Valerie! There are some advantages to being able to go for a few hours before breakfast.

Cheers,

Bill S.

"I eat breakfast and dinner, snack on the stuff most people snack on, and bring potato chips or similar on the hot days. It works for me"

and

"I'll echo everything Nick said.
Potato chips are my snack choice for the same reason."

Potato chips with salt on 'em are close enough to real food plus salt that they'll do just fine as electrolyte supplements. Potassium, check. Sodium, check. Good to go. :)

Bill S.

Lets try to get back to the basic points:

1) We are talking of either exercising at a pretty athletic level, or at least perspiring heavily. The whole discussion is pointless if you are just ambling along, or even hiking at a normal relaxed pace.

2) You are expending more calories than usual — how soon do they need to be replenished to avoid impacting performance?

3) You are losing electrolytes in the sweat — how soon do they need to be replaced to avoid problems?

I suggest that the last two points are the fundamental issue. Once they are understood, then reasonable people may have different suggestions for how to replenish in the necessary time frame. Any discussion of *how* before understanding *when* is pointless.

P.S. my experience is that I cannot wait for the next meal before replenishing some calories or else my performance suffers. This is consistent with some long-distance racer guidelines I have seen suggesting the racer needs to take in 250-280 calories per hour.

–MV

"Two scenarios come to mind:

"1) A long distance hiker, such as Malto, averaging about 30 mpd for a prolonged period"

In my experience, 30 mpd is just around the point when it gets harder to snack on real food while hiking. With long summer days, it's not hard to put in 25 while walking at a pretty comfortable pace, or even 30 if the terrain's not particularly challenging. But going longer than that means speeding up – to a walking pace that's less smooth and less efficient, for the average person – or sacrificing time for rest, sleep, and a couple of real meals per day. If you can snack on real food regularly during the day, and you make some of those snacks salty, you don't need to get all "engineer-y," as Sarah put it. (First cookbooks with real food, then touting real food as adequate for needs – I'm starting to suspect Sarah's in the pocket of the real food industry! :) )

"2) A well conditioned shorter-term hiker — weekends to a week or 10 days, hiking at 70%-75% HRR normally, from 80% HRR up to LT on the uphills. Long-ish days, covering 20-30 mpd. The kind who does the JMT in 10 days with no resupply."

The conditions specified in #2 seem a bit out of sync, relative to my own, but that shouldn't be surprising, since we're operating in the threshold zones, and since we've only specified distance, not time to cover it. I generally do my 20-25 mile days at a rather modest pace that usually has me under 50% HRR except on the climbs. At that rate, of course, snacking is easy. If I were in that 75% HRR zone, as I am on most of a typical group bike ride, snacking on the fly is not so easy.

I haven't done the full JMT yet, but have done some comparable trips, and expect to attempt just that, 10 days without resupply, some time in the next year or two. (I've hiked many parts of the JMT during other trips over the years, so know the terrain.) I don't expect to be pushing in ways that would make it hard for me to snack regularly on real food. Eight days would be an entirely different enterprise. If I could even do it, and that's definitely not a given, it'd probably require borrowing a few nutrition and hydration tricks from my cycling habits.

In summary, it sounds like you're going to be close enough to the threshold that the only way you're going to know the answer is to try it.

Cheers,

Bill S.

"Lets try to get back to the basic points:"

I'd say the *basic* point, at least my basic point, was that if you're eating and snacking on real food with adequate salt added, then you don't need anything else to take care of your electrolyte needs.

If you're going too hard to snack on real food, then you gotta start getting fancy.

"2) You are expending more calories than usual — how soon do they need to be replenished to avoid impacting performance?

"3) You are losing electrolytes in the sweat — how soon do they need to be replaced to avoid problems?"

IMO, the literature on this at the population level is not clear enough to make general recommendations, at least not at a level better than the ACSM recommendations I cited previously.

FWIW, if I were in a bike *race*, especially in hot weather, I'd be trying to keep calories and electrolytes running the whole time. For a hard one-two hour ride, I'm not going to worry about it if I forget my bottles. I might fall of the back toward the end, but I'm not going to be in any danger. More than a few hours, as in the ACSM recommendations, and I'm going to be sure I get replenished.

Cheers,

Bill S.

Bill,

I believe I understand your points finally — thanks for being patient. Here is what I think you are saying:

*) Snacks can contain all of the calories and electrolytes you need, and snacks are a suitable way to consume them — i.e. no digestive/digestion issues, etc

*) You believe that anyone who is traveling less than about 30 miles per day should have no difficulty finding times to consume the snacks, even if their hands are busy with hiking poles — just pause and eat often enough.

*) Since snacking is always practical and effective, the questions of how soon you need your calories and electrolytes becomes a moot point.

*) Someone who is racing, or who is traveling more than 30 miles per day may need to find another answer, perhaps adopting suggestions from long distance racers or long distance cyclists.

Am I representing y our views accurately?

–MV

"Am I representing y our views accurately?"

With explicit acknowledgment of individual variation, and a reminder that real foods tend to be deficient in sodium, specifically, unless salt is added, that's a fair summary!

Cheers,

Bill

"With explicit acknowledgment of individual variation, and a reminder that real foods tend to be deficient in sodium, specifically, unless salt is added, that's a fair summary!"

I'll have to think about this a bit, perhaps try some things.

* I quite agree that, if it is practical, getting what you need from real foods is the best way to go. For one thing, you also get all kinds of other good things, not just the targeted items. For another, the real food has greater caloric density — meaning it will take up less room and weigh less in your pack.

* My concern is the practicality. I came to hiking poles a bit late in the game and discovered that I like them and find them helpful. I also found that my snacking as I went disappeared. That's the part I need to think more about. I have found that I cannot just ignore the issue. While I will not perish before the next meal my performance will suffer.

* I also need to think about the sodium issue. Potato chips is not an acceptable answer for me. I wonder about timing needs — the problem would go away if I were fine with just getting enough salt in my normal breakfast and supper. My home experiences with sodium suggest that might be fine.

–MV

"My concern is the practicality. I came to hiking poles a bit late in the game and discovered that I like them and find them helpful. I also found that my snacking as I went disappeared. That's the part I need to think more about. I have found that I cannot just ignore the issue. While I will not perish before the next meal my performance will suffer.

"I also need to think about the sodium issue. Potato chips is not an acceptable answer for me. I wonder about timing needs — the problem would go away if I were fine with just getting enough salt in my normal breakfast and supper. My home experiences with sodium suggest that might be fine."

I hear you. I was also a late-comer to trekking poles and I don't like potato chips. :)

I used to walk with a fishing rod in one hand and water and/or snack in the other. Trekking poles fouled that up, and it took a while to find solutions that worked well for me. One way or another, you're going to need calories and electrolytes if there are ten hours of hard hiking between breakfast and dinner. You'll figure out which set of compromises works best for you. Wrt the sodium, if you're going at 70% HRR in hot weather, you'd almost certainly be better off not going ten hours without getting some replenishment. I've seen it done on a bike and it didn't end well. Some people worry too much about electrolytes and hydration. Some people pay it too little attention. You don't want to be on either side (and you *especially* don't want to test the combination of drinking too much water at the same time you're getting too little sodium). If you let us know what kinds of foods you like, I expect people will have some suggestions of palatable choices that are decent sodium sources.

Cheers,

Bill

For me, the key is salty food + potassium + water. It doesn't have to be tater chips (I happen to like them is why). Anything salty that your body can handle is fine. Plus some dried fruit for potassium or something else rich in it, all while taking a break where you have water.

Simple and it works :-)

So what would you suggest that has the necessary quantity of electrolytes and works out to about 250 calories per hour?

–MV

1 x Powerbar

The only problems with a Powerbar are that they require a lot of water to digest, and they are hard as hell when the air temperature is cool. You can break a tooth on one.

–B.G.–

"1 x Powerbar"

I thought we were talking about real food :)

One other thing is that real foods scale calories along with the electrolytes, while sports drinks do not necessarily do so and electrolyte tablets/capsules do not do so. Taking Saltstick as a guide for electrolyte supplementing — one that some endurance racers favor:
* Saltstick recommends taking 1-2 per hour
* Powerbar is in their ballpark for 1 per hour
* Taking two Powerbars per hour doubles the calories, though

I'm trying to imagine a 10-hour hiking day eating 10-20 Powerbars. Does not sound very attractive to me, and does sound expensive. I favor real foods from the supermarket, for reasons mentioned previously and for cost.

–MV

250 calories per hour?

Honestly, I don't count. I eat when hungry. I eat before I get the shakes. I don't eat heavy bars while moving – they sit in my stomach like a lead brick (I can eat things like Larabars – that are nuts and fruit). Although, recently I found a new product they are making called Renola – a grain free "granola" and a tiny bag is over 200 calories. That I can stomach and it is tasty. Expensive, but tasty.

When I lay out food for hiking, I think meals and snacks, what will fuel and fill me, what will satisfy my cravings – mostly healthy with some junk added in. I gave up counting calories and weight in food years ago – I had to. It is too easy to get obsessed ;-)

Just a personal idiosyncrasy, but I prefer to avoid manufactured bars. I'm not opposed to them for other people, and I don't have anything bad to say about them — I just personally prefer to minimize or avoid them.

–MV

"So what would you suggest that has the necessary quantity of electrolytes and works out to about 250 calories per hour?"

I can suggest some reasonable snack options or combinations if you let us know what kinds of foods might generally appeal. Any of these things sound good?

Corn chips, jerkey, cheese, crackers (any kind), dried fruit (any kind), sun-dried tomatoes, dried kale, other dried veggies (green beans?), nuts (any kind, tree or legume), hummus, mashed potatoes, lentil or pea soup, black beans, peanut butter, tortillas, milk, granola, other cereal, bars made with just fruit and nuts (either commercial or homemade, which is amazingly easy), chocolate.

Don't worry yet about how to snack on them, just trying to figure out some things about your tastes.

Cheers,

Bill S.

Bill,

I like all of those, but avoid things like corn chips and most crackers. Many of the things on your list seem well-suited to breakfast, supper, or a sit-down lunch but not to snacking on the move. As an example, I can see triscuits and peanut butter on a lunch beak, but not while on the move.

The ones from your list that seem adapted to snacking on the move are: jerky (maybe), cheese (cut up into chunks), dried fruit, and nuts.

I have trouble seeing things like crackers as very practical — I envision trying to cram them into a bear canister without crushing them. They take up more space than they are worth. Between bear canisters and a small UL backpack, space efficiency must be a consideration.

–MV

Crackers and chips have a purpose that is easily overlooked: to satisfy that "crunch" craving. So much food for hiking is soft or really chewy. But not crunchy. It also provides easy to use carbs…..

"Crackers and chips have a purpose that is easily overlooked: to satisfy that "crunch" craving. So much food for hiking is soft or really chewy. But not crunchy. It also provides easy to use carbs….."

I hear you — to each his own. That has never mattered to me, even on 2-4 week trips. I suppose it could also be related to the fact that I do not have crackers or chips around the house, either. I'm much more concerned about how to fit the food into a small pack and (especially) how to fit the food into a bear can.

–MV

Firstly, the OP might want to try to make some "fruit leather"-type snacks from pureed sweet potatoes (with some salt added). This can be easily made in a cheap dehydrator, and can be spiced with a wide variety of flavors (think ginger-cinnamon; chipotle or chili pepper; thyme-sage; curry; etc.). The sweet potato leather can be torn into pieces and consumed while you walk, a bit like jerky. Sweet potato is a powerhouse of good nutrients.

Secondly, thinking back to my adventure racing days, our sacred "food pyramid" was:
1. Fat
2. Sugar
3. Caffeine

We were doing high mileage, at race pace, for up to 12 days per race in difficult terrain and (usually) very adverse weather conditions. Yet most teams ate a lot of junk food and performed very well. OTOH, I totally respect the OP's wish to consume a "real food" diet; no one who has done the sport would argue that most adventure racers lead a healthy lifestyle during their races.

"Secondly, thinking back to my adventure racing days, our sacred "food pyramid" was:
1. Fat
2. Sugar
3. Caffeine"

Could you enlarge on this, please?

–MV