Synthetic jackets – how do they really perform in wet conditions?

[Daryl and Daryl]

"spandex absorbs more moisture than poly"

Could this be why the broad elastic band on my running shorts and wind pants is the slowest part of the garment to dry?

[Andrew F]

Dave, perhaps BPL has the resources to have a jacket made that is split down the middle and one half is filled with normal down and the other half with DWR down as many gear manufacturers do to test new fabrics? That could return some empiricism to the field testing. Personally I recently got a treated down winter bag and I look forward to seeing how it handles multi-day frigid trips this winter sans VBL.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, spandex is weird like that, it has a lowish moisture regain (pretty hydrophobic), but still seemingly absorbs a lot of moisture.

I suspect this is because of the physical structure of the fibers rather than the moisture regain of the material itself. Spandex fibers are very fibrous–there are a lot of little sub fibers with some space between them that make up the larger fiber. This is one of the combo of properties which allows it to stretch and recover so well.

Remember Richard Nisley's pointers about weave and thickness of a garment generally having more to do with drying time than specific material and moisture regain (with perhaps the slight exception of sheep's wool, which absorbs so much into the fiber itself)? Similar principle, when you add spandex, you're essentially adding extra interstices and space for water to take up.

I've never heard anyone else explain it like that before, but just put two and two together one time.

[edvin mellergård]

I think another important factor here is that fabrics with alot of elasthane(spandex) in them tend to be really tightly woven, partly because the spandex is pulling it together so the air permeability is alot lower. Also, the surface tend to be smoother than say normal fleece with alot of small fibers sticking out that can wick moisture from within the fabric to the surface where it can evaporate easy.

[Anonymous]

There are some noted exceptions, like Capilene 4/Polartec Power Dry High Efficiency fabric. This has 8% Spandex, yet wicks well and dries fast, but this is more because of voids and structure rather than the specific material.

[James holden]

My mec t2/t3 and old style cap4 dries faster than 100 wt fleece

;)

[Charley White]

Daryl Daryl wrote: "The pseudo-science wet weighing numbers I posted above, however, show that water is being held by the garments tested….both nylon and polyester."

Nothing pseudo about it. Here are my observations on this consideration, which may be erroneous, but I think are helpfully obvious.

–The only thing you actually "feel" is the baselayer, that which is next to your skin. You don't "feel" your insulating layers.

–All that retained water that you have quantified by weight must be evaporated, and only you can do it. (ignoring the months' long process of sublimation-drying of your frozen clothing if discarded and left.)

–The latent heat of evaporation for water at standard temperature and pressure is the same no matter what fiber/surface the water sits on.

Now I'll agree that wicking fabrics feel good because your heat drives-dry the fibers right against you, leaving them with more trapped air and less conductive. I suppose that if this were true over several millimeters such that only the outer surface of a miracle fleece had the water, and all the rest towards your skin were now fully insulating, the fleece would be better than, say, primaloft.

Otherwise, the only thing I care about–should a mishap strike badly–is the weight of retained water.

[Roger Caffin]

> such that only the outer surface of a miracle fleece had the water, and all the rest
> towards your skin were now fully insulating,
That pretty much defines the soft shell concept and the Paramo fabrics.

Cheers

[Justin Baker]

Has anyone tried putting dwr and non dwr down into a sauna and for a while and then measuring the loft?

[Mo Rodopsky]

David Chenault wrote:
"The fancy grid fleeces are fantastic at moving moisture, but if you need something to wear between a baselayer and a hard shell in 12 hours of pouring rain 100 wt Polartec Classic is still the best answer."

Can you elaborate on this? Is it so because of the lack of spandex in Polartec Classic 100 wt?

Edited: Nevermind,I saw the answer in one of your following posts.

[Anonymous]

"The fancy grid fleeces are fantastic at moving moisture, but if you need something to wear between a baselayer and a hard shell in 12 hours of pouring rain 100 wt Polartec Classic is still the best answer."

I would argue that a Paramo type "pump liner" fleece is significantly superior to the 100 wt fleece for the above. Slightly less warm, but more moisture protective, the fabric design helps to keep the water out on the surface.

Basically, a Paramo pump liner is a type of fleece similar in weight to 100wt regular fleece, that is smoothly woven on one side, but brushed with a kind of very short, microfiber fur/pile on the other side. The whole thing is treated with a DWR, and you wear the smooth side on your skin side, with the brushed/very short micro-fur/pile side facing outwards. In combo with a moderately to highly water/wind resistant shell/windjacket, it's pretty good at keeping you dry in all but the most torrential or wind driven rain.

The real deal stuff is expensive as heck (i paid 90+ dollars for a pumpliner from Cioch in Scotland), but Joann's regularly carries a very similar fabric. It may not be as durable–it seems to pill faster, but with MYOG skills you can save yourself a ton of money over importing from the UK.

[Rob P]

Just wanted to thank Stephen Komae and Dave C. for the good answers to my spandex questions….appreciate all the insights of everyone else too….One of the best places to learn about this kind of stuff, so thanks again!

[Barry P]

I’m extremely impressed with Montbells Exceloft. Sorry, that’s not your original synthetic question.
I’m a guy that just struggles with fleece. When it’s wet it’s heavy! I have to constantly wring it out. And overall — it’s heavy. On the other hand my MB Thermawrap (Older Action style) holds very little moisture (it’s insulation only holds 1% its weight) and it keeps me warm in the Teton’s 3-hr sleeting storms. And it’s so much lighter than a 200-weight fleece.

Fleece is the best at breathing (my Action Thermawrap is a very close 2nd) but it’s also the heaviest, bulkiest, and best sponge option you can choose.

Ironically I wear a 100 weight fleece every day in the cold months at my work. I can’t wear my synthetic jacket (even though it’s the same weight) or I’ll burn up.

-Barry
-May everyone stay warm when hiking in hail

[Jennifer Mitol]

"Has anyone tried putting dwr and non dwr down into a sauna and for a while and then measuring the loft?"

Justin, that's an awesome idea!!

Measure the loft, the weight, etc. Because for me the question isn't how do insulations perform when soaking wet – that's just miserable – I want to know what happens in high humidity, or if I've been breathing into my quilt/sleeping bag without realizing it (um, my entire patagonia trip with my last sleeping bag…), etc etc. I don't really care what a sleeping bag or jacket looks like once it's been dunked into a creek.

It's that insidious moisture that I wonder about.

[Billy Ray]

"I don't really care what a sleeping bag or jacket looks like once it's been dunked into a creek."

Oh, you will if it ever happens…. you will care with your life on the line!

Billy

[Jennifer Mitol]

I guess what I meant, Billy, is that how much difference can there be between FULLY soaked and KIND OF FULLY soaked? I had to spend a night in a KIND OF FULLY SOAKED synthetic bag in 30 deg temps several years ago and if it weren't for my friends sharing insulation and agreeing to spoon me I never would have made it. That bag was MISERABLE, synthetic or not.

I think the insidious moisture getting inside my down/synthetic insulation and making slowly less warm over the course of my trips is what I was curious about.

I can't see that anything out today that needs loft will keep me safe if the insulation is fully wetted out and it's 33 degrees outside.

[David Ure]

+1 Jennifer.

[Billy Ray]

"I can't see that anything out today that needs loft will keep me safe if the insulation is fully wetted out and it's 33 degrees outside."

Yes. I agree. But… most things in life are not black or white. There are many degrees of wetness before fully wetted out. If the new water resistant down just takes longer to wet out it could make the difference… even if it is fully wetter out by the morning.
If it takes longer to wet out, then that means more time with more warmth.

Billy

[Jerry Adams]

"or if I've been breathing into my quilt/sleeping bag without realizing it (um, my entire patagonia trip with my last sleeping bag…)"

Don't do that. Resist the urge. I have been in that situation and have breathed into my sleeping bag but I know it'll just make things worse in the long run.

Yeah, I wonder what happens in real situations, not when you put some down in a bucket of water or whatever.

I wonder what those real situations would actually be?

Maybe when you sweat in your jacket from over-exertion? but I can mainly avoid that situation

I've had insulation get wet from rain inside my pack. But that was fairly minor. I put it on and wear it for a while and it dries off.

I've had my WPB jacket fail and the synthetic insulation inside get wet, but again, it dried off after a while.

I wonder if anyone's actually had their insulation fail completely and not dry out after wearing a while. Either down or synthetic.

[Dale Wambaugh]

The key is "better than down," not "get it soaked and not know the difference." You can take a garment or bag that has synthetic fill and wring it out and be left with some semblance of loft, but it won't be warm and fuzzy. If you are lucky, your body heat and/or a campfire might continue to the dry the synthetic fill. I have wrung out fleece and given it a good shake and got it to the point where it was wearable and my body heat continued the process. Do the same with down and you end up with goose flavored oatmeal with ZERO loft.

In either case, you want to do everything you can to avoid getting your insulation wet. Synthetic fill will improve your chances of survival, but it is no iron clad insurance policy and certainly not a license for careless gear management.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Jennifer,

"I can't see that anything out today that needs loft will keep me safe if the insulation is fully wetted out and it's 33 degrees outside."

I almost agree.

A closed cell foam float coat does it for me. The closed cell foam doesn't absorb much if any water and retains most of its insulating value regardless of rain or sweat.

Mine comes from a second hand shop and weighs about 1.5 lbs. I wish it was lighter but it does replace five items that I would otherwise carry: insulating coat, rain coat, sleeping pad, life jacket, bull/bear fighting cape. Plus its the only thing that I've found that works for me.

Here are two photos of Daryl with the coat.

[BlackHatGuy]

I would love to go hiking with you some day Daryl.

[Jerry Adams]

maybe river rafting or canoeing?

[Daryl and Daryl]

Doug,
Hiking with me would be a real let down for you. I'm actually a 30 year old voluptuous woman with a sexual addiction. There is no way I could put in enough miles to satisfy you.

Jerry,
Thanks for the reminder that the float coat is actually a floatation device appropriate for canoe and raft. I failed, yes failed, to mention the obvious but have gone back and edited my post to include your observation.

Ian,
Thanks for not responding. I know you wanted to.

[Ralph Burgess]

Daryl, have you thought this through?
What are your priorities if a bear ambushes you while you're sleeping on your raft in a cold rainstorm?

[Author]

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