Exped UL7 W versus NeoAir XTherm L

What you find with almost ANY airmat with cross-ways ribs is that the sides are very weak, so the mat seems to be much narrower than it really is. And it is rather easy to partly fall off the sides at night. Been there, fell off.

The Exped mats on the other hand, especially the UL-7, are rather good. After my wife pinched mine, I had to go and BUY another one. I don't BUY much gear.

Cheers

Granted, it is a Very subjective situation, but while lying on my side, I am able to park my butt on the edge and not slide off.

When on my back, it is amazingly stable, even when I intentionally "crowd" the edge.

I've been sleeping on a UL7 for about a year, so I appreciate a stable matt.

I found the first generation of NeoAir unworkable.

Something has changed.

I have different experiences with the Exped pads and my arms sliding off…

I have been lying on my older Exped SynMat 7 fairly often over the last couple of weeks (granted, in my living room at night while watching tv), but have found that, to me, my arms seem to slide off this pad just as easily as they do my NeoAir's (when comparing 20" pads). The only thing that i can figure is that while a firm Exped is a hair wider than a firm NeoAir, the rolled edges on the Expeds actually make it just as narrow because as the rolled edge drops, so do my arms. When lying on my Neoairs, they can also drop around the edges, but they still feel somewhat supported, rather than simply rolling off the edges like on the Exped's. So, in light of this, the useable width of an Exped for me is the measurement from the highest point on each outer baffle… which may actually make the pad a bit narrower than the NeoAirs…

Of course the only real answer to either of these pads is to go with a wider pad…

And to the OP, keep in mind that the XTherm has a 4.9 R-Value, vs the 3.1 on the Exped… so even though it is a little heavier, it is also providing quite a bit more warmth. It looks like you like the idea of the higher denier material on the bottom of the XTherm, but in terms of warmth and material, the large XLite is a closer comparison. (And FWIW, my large XLite comes in at 15.5 oz exactly.)

"The only thing that i can figure is that while a firm Exped is a hair wider than a firm NeoAir, the rolled edges on the Expeds actually make it just as narrow because as the rolled edge drops, so do my arms."

Yep. Functionally narrower than the XTherm. And it feels that way.

"And to the OP, keep in mind that the XTherm has a 4.9 R-Value, "

ummmm… R-5.7 according to Cascade Design.

" It looks like you like the idea of the higher denier material on the bottom of the XTherm …"

Yes. That is the real driver for me. The 30d on the XLite isn't enough of a difference to switch to.

Greg,

I have not used the x therm so not much use to you, but I used
an original Neoair for a long while and always ended up falling off it during the night, since moving to an Exped I stay on it all night long.

The bigger side baffles make a big difference.

Good catch! I was thinking of the All Season R-Value… So wow, 5.7… that is almost twice the pad as the Exped UL7! :)

The SynMat has an R value of 3.1 but the DownMat ul7 has an R value has 5.9 and is considered a 4 season pad, directly competing with the XTherm.

From your original post you make it sound like you are choosing the xtherm as your go to year round pad. I was under the impression that a mat with a R value over 5 is too hot from late spring to early fall months.

I only ask because I am considering getting a new mat with R value over or close to 5 and figured I would just use that one when forecasted weather was under 30 degrees.

That's a misnomer. No pad is "too hot"–they're only more efficient. Basically, both a three-season and winter pad have the insulation to keep you at very, very similar levels of warmth (to the point that you won't notice a difference) at 50 degrees F. However, you might notice a difference, depending on R-value, at 30 degrees F. At 10 degrees F, the winter pad only has the insulation to keep you warm.

Basically, they both lose heat to the ground so slowly that at higher temperatures (e.g., summer) they are functionally the same. At lower temperatures, the three-season pad loses heat to the ground too quickly to keep you similarly warm.

FYI, I use an XTherm year-round. It was the 70D bottom and simplicity of having one pad that convinced me.

Clayton, that's really interesting information and not what I would have thought at all.
Where can I read more about how insulation works at higher temps?
I've had issues the last two years in the dead of summer of being too hot and not being completely happy with shifting my quilt around to un/cover different parts, so I had been looking into getting a pad with the lowest R-value I can find (and a weight I like). If that's truly a dead end, I'd like to learn about it.

I am not sure where you would go to ask that question. For most of us it is sort of self-evident. A high R value under you just means you are not losing heat in that direction. Yes, that does mean you will have to adjust your quilt instead.

But before getting too worried, ask yourself what do you do at home? I doubt your mattress has a 'low R value', so at home you have to adjust whatever bed coverings you use. NO difference.

Cheers

I have slept year round on a down mat for many many years and recently switched from a UL7 Downmat to a large xtherm and it isn't too hot. If it gets uncomfortable it isn't due to R value, it is due to the fact that is doesn't breathe like my mattress at home. I just adjust the insulation on top of me and with the high R value pad I don't need as much on top for any given temp.

I have gone from using the NeoAir's during our summer months to a small ProLite 3. There is of course a little weight savings, but the best thing is that it doesn't feel as hot as the NeoAir's do. In the summer months, I can actually feel the heat being reflected back up towards me on a NeoAir, and this makes me hotter… and this is with me lying on the pad in my skivvies, and no quilt on top. I don't feel the heat being reflected back at me with the ProLite's, or even my SynMat7 that I used a few weeks back, like I do with the Original, or the XLite NeoAir.

Scott- Have you considered hammocks? You can skip underside insulation altogether if it's warm.

Q = (T_person – T_ground)/R

As the temperature of the ground approaches your temperature, heat loss (Q) will go to zero no matter what R is. As others have mentioned: look how thick the mattress on your bed is! Home mattresses have a much higher R value than what is used backpacking and people use them no matter how hot it is.

In the summer adjusting the insulation above you is the only thing that will help you regulate temperatures.

I would love to pull the trigger on the Xtherm but I'm a quilt user and lying directly against that coated fabric just doesn't seem comfortable. My Synmat UL7 is so much comfortable for this reason. How do quilt/xtherm users fare with this combo?

I sleep in long underwear as a quilt user with the xtherm – and every other pad I have owned. Silkweight down to about freezing and Cap 2 or 3 (or their equivalent) as the temps drop. I couldn't do bare skin on anything that didn't breathe – which is every pad that I am aware of you might carry. Some of the Klymit open frame inflatables might be more comfortable for that.

Roger: It's not that I'm uncompromising in adjusting my quilt; I do do that.
I don't see the home vs hiking comparison to be relevant as I, and most people I believe, have air conditioning and only own one home mattress. The environments are completely different. Aside from that, I've known many people who switch their fitted sheets to flannel in the winter.

I'm not the type of person who forgoes facts because of what I think I know or find self-evident. That's why I am so interested in Clayton's information, as it goes against what was intuitive to me. I like learning new things and would love to see the science behind insulation at higher temperatures being marginal or irrelevant.

Katherine: I'm not looking to change my entire sleep and shelter system, just find a sleeping pad I like.

Think about it this way:

Neither sleeping bags nor sleeping pads produce heat. They conserve heat produced by your body.

So find the lowest R-value sleeping pad and lightest sleeping bag (or sheet, or blanket) you can find and try that combination.

For summer, I use a short Neoair Xlite and a EE Prodigy 40deg (altho they also make a 50deg) quilt. I am a fidgety sleeper and alternate all night long among back, right side, left side and belly sleep positions. The best cooling (and comfort) effect comes from deflating the pad to the point that hips and shoulders compress the pad almost to the ground, further reducing the insulation value of the pad. Then arms and legs dangle off the pad, in contact with the cool Earth, losing some more heat that way, via direct conduction.

I learned all this from watching my dog dig a small trench in the cool Earth and resting his belly in it.

"Some of the Klymit open frame inflatables might be more comfortable for that."

Scott – note John's comment ^^^

I would guess the larger the area of "loft pockets," the less heat reflected. And Klymt pads are budget-friendly to boot

> most people I believe, have air conditioning
Maybe in parts of America. In the rest of the world – unlikely. No, we don't. It's a lot cheaper without. :-)

Cheers

I use a SynMat, as I sleep better on it then an original generation NeoAir. However, I have more respect for the NeoAir design. Their reflective baffling is more thermally efficient than synthetic insulation or down, so Thermarest can offer a pad that is warmer, more durable and still lighter.

Also, SynMats seem more plagued with problems. There's anecdotally more punctures (lighter material), the baffles seem to fail more commonly and the synthetic insulation eventually detaches inside the pad and starts to fall to one end. Still, I sleep better on one so I use it. My desire for a winter pad plus the poor condition of my present SynMat may lead me to switch to an Xtherm.

Scott, you can get a completely uninsulated inflatable pad for summer camping and it will be a lot cooler. I think an uninsulated pad may do more than the insulation on top since the air on top may be hotter than the ground; therefore you have a greater temperature differential and a greater heat transfer. If it was comfortable, I think you would be even cooler directly on the ground. Most people have not slept in the kind of hot summer nights we get so its difficult to understand. I try to avoid camping on the kind of hot summer nights we have but do occasionally. Big Agnes makes some uninsulated pads.

"most people I believe, have air conditioning
Maybe in parts of America. In the rest of the world – unlikely. No, we don't. It's a lot cheaper without. :-)"

God bless America!

Ryan