Better for your shell to be snug or loose?

I don't mind them either way, but too loose can cause issues in heavy wind.

I have seen Richard Nisley repeatedly suggest a small gap between layers creates some advantage to insulation. He has a response here that may be useful:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=31129

A snug/athletic/fitted fit helps avoid the creation of a microclimate that can lead to condensation and internal icing.

I all depends on what you want to wear under it.

If you want to wear a down jacket under it, you will have to have enough room for any layers under the down, the down jacket, and not so snug that you compress the down.

But if you know for sure you're not going to wear a thick layer at some time, then snug is okay.

Billy

> not having a huge space of dead air that you have to heat
The real problem is the concept of 'dead space'. The phrase is totally misleading imho. What happens in practice if the shell is too loose is that it can flap around and pump air in and out – warm air out and cold air in. Nothing 'dead' there at all.

On the other hand, if the shell is too tight you have many other problems. Tricky. Which is one reason why a soft-shell has some advantages.

Cheers

Personally, I would have a shell that leaves me a little room with a base layer and up to 200-wt fleece or down/syn sweater. And a hooded parka that fits over that.

And (again, personally) I would not get a shell that didn't have pit zips.

Based on a fair amount of experience in sustained sub-zero weather.

And (again, personally) I would not get a shell that didn't have pit zips.

I second that. A shell with pit zips isn’t necessarily guaranteed to be a high quality garment, but one without shows that the company marketing it has little respect for would-be buyers, IMO.

I've tried pit zips but they never seemed very effective. There wasn't a lot of ventilation happening.

But some people like them which is okay with me : )

> A shell with pit zips isn’t necessarily guaranteed to be a high quality garment, but
> one without shows that the company marketing it has little respect for would-be
> buyers, IMO.

Can't see any logic there at all. I have never found pit zips to be of any value at all. It's my back which gets sweaty, not my armpits. So why clutter up an otherwise good design with marketing frills?
I'm contrary…

Cheers

Roger isn't as polite (Weazely?) as I

It just depends.
Some add vents because that appears to be a selling point, but without knowing whether or not those vents have an effect.
OTOH, there are those who purposely don't add vents because they have reasoned that for this and that they aren't needed.
And then there are those who do add vents, but they are too small, bad placed, etc … so that you already know when seeing that they'll probably not that effective.

I do know that for me good designed vents work.

I found with pit zips that when my arms are down by my side, like most of the time, that the vents are essentially closed. They don't work well enough to be worried about if they are there or not.

"I found with pit zips that when my arms are down by my side, like most of the time, that the vents are essentially closed. They don't work well enough to be worried about if they are there or not."
The pit zips on YOUR jacket(s) may not (have) work(ed then, but you can't generalize that to ALL pit zips.

Not that I hike in a shell very often, but when I do, pit zips make a huge difference. 'Course I don't walk with my arms down at my sides…

Don't wear a shell just because it's raining, either. Has to be cool out, or very cold and windy.

The Helium HD I have has 16" pit zips so there is no issues there and I can wear a R2 under it along with two baselayers stacked on top of each other but there is not much dead air at all and the bottom can cinch.

I like my shell layer to be loose. I like the heat pump effect of the loose fabric for both heat and moisture control.

Can't see any logic there at all. I have never found pit zips to be of any value at all. It's my back which gets sweaty, not my armpits.

Mine do, but I dunno, maybe you don’t have sweat glands in your pits? But as others in the thread rightly point out, I should have specified generous side zips, not meager pit zips. With the side zips fully open at least some of the perspiration escapes while still in vapor form, and not just that generated at my pits. So they serve to prevent internal condensation, even if they don’t regulate temperature (which for me they do).

So why clutter up an otherwise good design with marketing frills?

When you can cut production costs by leaving out a design feature that serves a purpose? Fair question.

I'm contrary…

″

Cheers

″

Typical BPL! ;-)

What some people find enormously beneficial, others find utterly useless.

Depends on location/conditions/etc. For those who haven't tried them, it's easy enough to find out for yourself if they have any value.

I like a loose fit on a rain shell— I WANT the "bellows effect" and all the ventilation features I can get.

If you are layering under, it is cold and/pr you are sitting still. Hiking uphill with a load, I would be wearing just some form of base layer— nothing heavier than R1 and more likely Cap2-ish.

My poncho is a loose fit ;)

I like a little room. I don't use the same layering always with the same hard shell so I size it to fit my thickest insulating layer with room for movement.

I like pit zips too. Not because they provide some massive amount of venting when used open but because I stick my arms out them when under heavy exertion. Sure… I could peel the shell off but sometimes that keeps me from stopping to transfer a layer in/out of my pack. Poking my arms out is enough to moderate my body temp under exertion so that I don't sweat too much. It is an intermediate step between no shell and full shell.