Winter Stove Discussion – 2014

[Mitch Chesney]

So has anything come out recently to upset the top liguid-fuel contenders? XGK-EX, Dragonfly, and Omnifuel

So many discussions yet these seem to be at the top consistently. And while Im pretty much settled on the Dragonfly for the simmering ability, I can't shake the fuel efficiency problems compared to the blow torch XGK.

Edit: I should add I'll only be using this stove for solo/duo winter mountaineering (no big walls, no hanging necessary) or group meals.

[Thomas Conly]

I don't think there's been a ton of advancement in the liquid fuel stove arena. I would say though that you can simmer with most stoves even if people say you can't. Pump up the your bottle fairly well and light the stove like you normally would. Let it burn for half a minute on high, then turn it off. This gets the fuel line hot enough to continue to vaporize the fuel. Let the pressure out of the fuel bottle without burning yourself and give it 4-6 pumps. Light your stove again and you should be able to get a nice simmer. You might have to pump it once or twice if you simmer anything for a long time. I made crepes on my whisperlite once using that trick.

[Alex H]

Optimus Nova. Not new but better pump, better simmer, better build IMHO.

[Roger Caffin]

> has anything come out recently to upset the top liguid-fuel contenders?
Oh, definitely.

Liquid-fed or inverted canister stoves have rendered the old white gas and kero stoves almost completely obsolete, at least for lightweight backpacking. They are now dinosaurs – which is why you don't see lots of new designs.

It turns out the canister fueel runs (typically) at close to twice the fuel efficiency. This has been measured so often under such a wide range of conditions it has ceased to be argued.

Inverted canister stoves are usually less than half the weight of the dinosaurs as well, and that is allowing for the various sorts of fuel containers.

And before you try to claim a power advantage for white gas, I will point out that again, canister stoves are up to 50% more powerful than white gas stoves. Generally this is due to the laws of physics and air flow. This too is well-known now.

Cheers

[JP]

–

[Rick M]

del

[Stephen M]

I am very impressed with the a Optimus Nova, my Omnifuel is now only kept at home as a spare for power cuts.

[USA Duane Hall]

I collect stoves, so I prefer the ones 30-40 years old or more. A real jewel is a Radius 43 with roarer burner, simmers so great, uses kerosene, not sure of its age. The DF is very adjustable, quiet with a silent after market cap. I find it hard to keep the o-ring lubricated well on the Omnifuel I believe, so it makes it hard to make tiny adjustments in the flame. DF rules. The early MSR stoves are nice to make some heat to warm a tent up quick with proper ventilation and more caution.
Duane

[Thomas Conly]

I most definitely wouldn't take a canister stove out in winter where I am. But then again, one trip saw a low of -36F so that's probably not what most people are experiencing. I had a friend who had an omnifuel and it died on the first trip. It's just one experience but it left a sour taste in my mouth. I know it's not fancy, but my favourite is still the whisperlite because it's lighter than the dragonfly and the replacement pump is easier to find. I didn't find the dragonfly that much nicer.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I'm with Thomas.
If I know it's going to be below -10 F. I'll lug my MSR Dragonfly along. Utterly reliable at any below zero temps that I can put up with and is THE best simmering white gas stove I know. At bitterly cold temps (-22 F.) the Dragonfly has been totally reliable.

OTOH, I do need to update my remote canister stove to an inverted canister. Suggestions??

[Roger Caffin]

> Isnt inverting a fuel canister only good to about -10 degrees?
In theory … in theory.
But in practice, it is rarely a problem. Water in your pack can stay liquid when you are walking due to heat from your body. Keep the canister nearby and it too will be 'warm'. Keep the canister at the bottom of your SB/quilt overnight, and it will be warm.
Let a little heat from the flames warm the canister while in use, and it will be warm.
Sit the canister in a bowl of cold water and it will be 'warm enough'.

After all, YOU are also in that ambient of -10 F, but you don't freeze.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> Will Roger build a new batch of stoves for this season and will he make them
> available to all takers or reserve them for BPL Members Only? That is the $64k question!
Eh , $64k for a stove – nice! If only … :-)

I have (today) 7 stoves left. The beta-test deal was never for 'Members only'. It was open to all registered BPL readers.

Cheers

[Mitchell Ebbott]

I came across this guy today while looking for inexpensive options for a winter stove (and regretting having passed up on a Primus Express Spider for $20 on clearance). It looks to have all the necessary components—remote canister, a pre-heat tube, and compatibility with standard canister fuel tanks.

I doubt there's anyone here with firsthand experience, but perhaps somebody educated will share some thoughts? Will I be putting myself at unacceptable risk if I get one of these and rely on it in winter, even after some at-home testing?

[James Marco]

I guess the dinosaur has to make his statement.

I use the venerable SVEA 123r when I did a bunch of winter camping(I have diabetes and cannot feel my feet, soo I don't go out in winter anymore.) I have been using this little stove for about 40 years.

Yes, I have one of Roger's super stoves. I find it a bit wobbly. The problem is that the feet are attached to the burner, which is attached to the pot stand. This makes it inherrantly wobbly. A better design is to remove the pot stands, then make the legs out of a stainless steel to support the pot directly. Yes, it is very efficient at around 9-12g/liter with the FM-300 burner.

Overall, the efficiency of the old SVEA is roughly the same at 9-12gm/liter. However, adding in for priming brings this up to 10-13gm/liter. WG always needs some sort of priming. Both stoves were tested using the same pot, same amount of water and with a 8minute boil time (roughly.)

Priming only requires 1-2gm of fuel. Note that this may need to be done twice in -5C weather (coldest I tested it at.)

I do not like canister fuels. I have had a couple fail. I don't like to carry the extra weight of the can. If I use a canister stove, I always bring a second canister as a backup. With the typical 220gm canister, about 130gm is the can. They are larger/bulkier than is needed.

The Svea is much like a refillable canister stove. Except for the priming, it requires no pumping (though I have a "Midi kit" for colder weather that lets me pump it.) The stove itself weighs about 19.5oz. But this includes the cup. The cup weighs about 2.5oz. Note that the density of WG is around .8 so a 12oz plastic soda bottle of fuel weighs about 10oz.

The fill cap for the soda bottle of fuel is perhaps the key to my success with the stove. It is a small piece of 12ga wire casing, warmed and poked into a slightly smaller hole in a spare soda bottle cap. It is then warmed and bent to 45 degrees. This is trimmed to about 3/4-7/8" long from the bend. I fill it by alternatly squeezing and letting it suck air till it starts sucking fuel. (About 3/4" below the fill opening.)

After closing and replacing the wind screen, I give a small squirt of fuel around the burner into the priming cup around the valve (vapourizer.) 1-2gm is plenty, but in cold weather, go ahead and fill the priming cup. I turn it on low and light it. A yellow flame 6-8" is normal, it will flare a couple times, then light off. It will turn blue after about 10 more seconds, and you can turn it up. Note that unless it is full, you might need a second priming in cold weather, though this is rare, because as it warms the valve, some fuel will be forced out and lit (the flares I mentioned.)

The action of the stove inside is: as the valve warms, any fuel expands and is presurized. The pressure goes into the tank(through the internal wick) AND out the jet. Just heating the valve is enough to start the stove. As the stove warms up (thrugh conduction) it self feeds gas into the valve and maintains the flame. A very simple setup. No pump is actually required, though it helps in very cold weather when the stove doesn't want to stay warm(-20C or so) or you set it on some very cold surface.

It takes a variety of fuels though this is not recomended. You *can* run unleaded gas though this burns a bit slower than WG. You can also use acetone, though this may pop the saftey valve and burns a bit hotter than WG. A plate with some water in it will prevent this. Benzine will also burn, but this is not readily availible these days. (It used to be marketed as "spot" remover or dry cleaning fluid.) I used Ronson lighter flued in it once…it worked. It will not burn mineral spirits or kerosene. Of couse, White Gas is recomended. I have used WG with 10% alcohol in it. (Left over from testing smaller alcohol stoves.)

The simplicity of design, and overall burn efficiency for a liquid fuel stove, makes it my choice for almost all of my long duration trips of a week or more. It is ultra-reliable, but letting it run dry can ruin the internal wick. Tuning the cover plate will remove yellow flames while burning. And it can burn on low for simmering or high for melting larger pots of snow up to two liters. But, because of the low heat output (about 4000BTU) it is not recommended for groups. It makes a good, reliable solo stove.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi James

> I have one of Roger's super stoves. I find it a bit wobbly.
True. In fact, I commented on this in the article. Comes of being SUL.

My solution, which I have to say works extremely well, is shown in the last photo in Part 2. Three very small (micro-)Ti stakes, poked through the legs into the ground. I have just been using it for several weeks in the Pyrenees in France, and with these in place the stove was rock solid.

Cheers

[Mitchell Ebbott]

Whoops, apparently the link got deleted from my post. Here's the URL for the $28 Chinese remote canister stove I was talking about:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191018606510?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

[Zorg Zumo]

I wrapped a piece of 1/4" wood stove door gasket around the stem at the priming indentation. I held it on by threading some wire through it and twisting tight. I siphon a little fuel onto the wick with my dip tube. This setup burns longer and much more consistently in the wind.

I use mine with the Optimus Weekend Heat Exchanger pot to extract all the BTUs from the little stove. I guess I'm a dinosaur too.

[Joe S]

Back in the dark ages, I carried some flamable paste to prime a 123R. Worked pretty well. Never weighed it.

[Paul McLaughlin]

I still use my MSR Simmerlite. Doesn't simmer but is lite. My own testing found that the greater efficiency of the canister stove is offset for me by the lighter container (assuming you carry the WG in plastic bottles). This applies as long as: A) you are going on a trip of a week or more; and B) your cooking style is light it once in the morning and once at night. If you light the stove more often than that the extra priming will eat into the efficency of the WG stove and the canister will pull ahead. If you are on a shorter trip the fact that you need a metal bottle for the first 1/2 liter of fuel will cut into the container weight advantage.
I also happen to have compared SImmerlite to Whisperlight and found that they were equal in fule efficiency for my use. The Simmerlite uses slightly more fuel to prime but runs slightly more efficiently.

But if I were buying a stove now for winter use, I'd probably go canister. It does take some practice with a WG stove to get the priming thing down to where you use a minimum of fuel to get the thing going. I've only been doing it for about 40 years now, so I'm still working on it.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Mitchell – that stove is not very light at 214g, and also we've seen some cheap chinese stoves (Bulin in particular) with fuel lines that decomposed and clogged. I'd skip that and get a Kovea Spider for about $60 – lighter (170g), from a proven manufacturer and well reviewed. You want to have faith in the stove you taek out in the winter.

[Mitch Chesney]

For fast and light I already use a canister but I need a WG stove for base camp. Plus, the price per gallon of water from snow is is obviously better with liquid fuel.

I think I've changed my mind to the MSR XGK EX and I'll construct a simmer plate from a sink plate strainer. I'm still hesitant about the plastic pump assembly – even Caffin was commenting about this problem earlier this year here – but it sounds like its preventable with diligent maintenance and cleaning. Otherwise my next option was the Optimus Nova (not the "+")… Still, Hikin' Jim warned if quality control issues and changes brought on by the Katadyn acquisition.

[Jerry Adams]

Isobutane boils at 10 F or so, so upright is only good down to 20 F or so.

Somebody suggested turning canister upside down, filling bottom with water, putting on plastic lid, turning upright and using. Or put in small pan of water. Then it can be used down to 0 F or so. You have to occasionally put in a small amount of your hot water to keep it from freezing.

Inverted requires the temperature be above the melting point which is less than -300 to -28 F. The little bit of propane in the mix will provide enough pressure to push it out.

Below that you have no business being outside : )

I agree with Roger, white gas is dinosaur.

I've used maybe 50 canisters. I don't carry a spare. One canister's valve stuck open, so I just left the burner screwed on until the canister was used up. One canister the mechanical tolerance was off so I had to screw the stove on really tight to get the valve to open. If my stove failed on a trip I'de make do somehow – eat my food that didn't have to be heated or make a wood fire. Maybe come back a day early if I was low on food.

[Zorg Zumo]

The modern day Crocodile is a dinosaur – doing quite well thank you.

I'm comfortable using all sorts of stoves when it is warm, but my comfort level drops off rapidly as the temps fall. It is hard to let go of something that just flat works in the cold.

I wouldn't say that white gas is a dinosaur, rather I think it is better to say that canister stove technology has finally advanced to the point where it is useful in the winter.

Just my opinion of course as nobody of consequence :)

[Jerry Adams]

birds are dinosaurs. They are doing quite well. There will be a day when homonids go extinct and birds take over as the dominant species…

[Roger Caffin]

> The modern day Crocodile is a dinosaur
Well, not really. They are related, but it would be wrong to say a croc is a dinosaur. Crocs are a different part of the family tree.

Birds now, they are descended from dinosaurs. Just think about that around Thanksgiving …

Cheers

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