- Feb 16, 2015 at 12:50 pm #2174745
Finally! Just finished my 3 man tunnel tent. 3 mummy shaped matts fit fine and the slightly extended vestibule feels plenty big to me.
Inner : 447g
Fly with all Guy lines and tentioners: 805g
Poles: well I still ned to buy Fibraplex poles/probes but il should come at about 420g (I'm using some make shift Aluminum poles for now)
The silnylon I used for my pole sleeve was too light. I should have gone with a much tougher sil so I added a patch of 1.43osy cuben over the critical part of the sleeve. Ounce I have my poles, I'll add a slippery/rounded tip to make pole insertion faster and easier on the sleeve. But with the value of my Canadian dollar… The poles will wait. bummer! The hoods will need some more wire snipper stiffners to help keep their shape. Also needed is a Polycryo or Tyvek ground sheet.
I'll eventually add a removable zipper less mesh door for the inner.
Inner in Argon 67
Fly in 1.0 cuben
Sleeves and floor in thru-hiker silnylon
Lots of Cuben fiber tape
Some contact cement (at the four corners)
Zippers are #3's. And Uretek for the front door.
Most sewing in rasant 75 and 120.
And lastly it isn't seam sealed yet. This will wait till summer.
CheersFeb 16, 2015 at 1:00 pm #2174746
Simon KentonBPL Member
Amazing work! Very neat to watch throughout the process. You are very talented, congratulations on the completed projectFeb 16, 2015 at 1:08 pm #2174754
Valerie EBPL Member
@wildtownerLocale: Grand Canyon State
Bravo — c'est vraiment impressionant! Tu dois être très fier. Franchement, je n'est pas assez de courage pour un projet tellement complexe…Feb 16, 2015 at 2:02 pm #2174764
Well, I am impressed. Mind you, I want to see photos of it in the snow too!
Mitten hooks for the inner tent – neat idea.
I used standard silnylon for the sleeves – it seems strong enough to me.
Just not sure about the attachments at the corners of the ends – I can see the webbing around the hem at the bottom, but is there any other reinforcing at the corners? Ah – checked later photos and I can see the reinforcing.
Well, what we need now is a nice storm …
CheersFeb 16, 2015 at 2:06 pm #2174767
Ryan SmithBPL Member
Great work! I can't even imagine how much time it took to put that together. Looks like it was worth it though.
RyanFeb 16, 2015 at 2:55 pm #2174784
Dan DurstonBPL Member
Nice job!Feb 16, 2015 at 5:29 pm #2174833
George FBPL Member
I've been meaning to say this but didn't get to it on your other updates, so I don't want to miss out now:
Wow. Incredible job. I hope you keep us posted not just on the final steps but performance when you test it out. Truly inspirational.Feb 17, 2015 at 8:55 am #2174984
Erik GBPL Member
@fox212Locale: Central Coast
Fantastic work! It looks really, really nice. Thank you for keeping us all updated on your progress, lots of great info.
Can't wait to see this beast in action!Feb 17, 2015 at 5:47 pm #2175175
I'm with all of you for testing the tent in bad weather. It will most likely happen during March break. But by the looks of it, snow will be scarce.
Thank you for all the positive comments.
Talent: I did not show any zoomed in pics… But really after making 4 backpacks I can say that sewing long straight lines (or gluing) is simpler than figuring pack corners and which side to sew… Yes, it gave me issues. The real secret is to plan and visualize how you will do the plan. I also took some notes down and modified them as needed after testing or after simple visualization.
I realized while taking the tent down that I did not make a stuff sac for it!!! It was not in the plan…
Now I need to learn how to work with Titanium foil to make a modified Caldera Cone (much more air flow for the Caffin remote stove) and some snow pegs… New challenges ahead…
Cheers.Feb 17, 2015 at 5:49 pm #2175176
Thanks so much for the update and further info. The end covers look great.
Thinking about making suspended inners, I wondered if stringing light cord tautly through the mitten hooks, both horizontally and vertically, might provide the exact dimensions for an inner (until the nylon expands and sags, of course – is there a breathable super light polyester out there?).
Should you have any interest in trying 5 layer filament wound carbon arrow shafts, using carbon inner ferrules, for the poles, please let me know – I'll share the sourcing on what I use.
Very impressive work!Feb 17, 2015 at 6:50 pm #2175206
Carbon fiber poles:
I know that the Fibraplex poles can flex to the curvature of my tunnel (that why I made a 3 man tent) but I doubt arrow shafts would. I bet using these shafts imply using elbows? Let me know if I'm wrong Sam. Part of the goal for the poles was to use them also as avy probes. When going with two partners we collectively save the weight and the volume of three probes!!!
I'm only 5'8'' so I won't feel the sagginess of the inner but my two 6'5'' ish partners might. I also might add some more tensioners at the bottom to help with the floor shape. That is still a debate. They would be glued to the silnylon floor to avoid stitching with Permatex silicone adhesive sealant.
Roger, can you give us any detail of how you placed your internal guys? Pretty please… I used tiny ''S'' biners to make them removable and used 40# rated dyneema fishing line. Is that good enough? I can double the cord if it isn't strong enough or use some spectra cord from Twin Line.
CheersFeb 17, 2015 at 7:35 pm #2175230
Chad BBPL Member
Wow, fantastic work!Feb 17, 2015 at 8:32 pm #2175253
Yes, the Fibratex wrapped fabric poles are more bendy. If you can get the required curvature with them, I will be interested. Mind you, keeping one bend at the peak means less chance of snow staying up there. Having 3 bends gives me wider head room.
> Roger, can you give us any detail of how you placed your internal guys?
I have guy ropes just under the corners, which are at about 2/3 peak ht. Those guy rope attachments go through the seam to the inside, and through the suspension system for the inner tent, to make anchors for the inner guys, as shown here.
> Tiny S biners – yes, similar.
> 40# rated dyneema – I think mine uses common bricklayers guide string, which won't be much different (maybe more stretchy). Sounds fine.
CheersFeb 17, 2015 at 8:34 pm #2175254
> Should you have any interest in trying 5 layer filament wound carbon arrow shafts,
> using carbon inner ferrules, for the poles, please let me know – I'll share the
> sourcing on what I use.
Ah, but can they make the elbows??? That would change a LOT of things.
CheersFeb 18, 2015 at 8:47 pm #2175608
I have ordered Fibraplex poles a couple times, but not recently. Except from what you tell me, and a post a while back in a recent thread showing them ferruled and wrapped in a circle, I've no idea of their current flexibility, or to how small a radius they can be bent and retain their strength. Of course, too much flexibility could be a problem, as the tent would have no inherent stability in side winds, requiring a full component of side guy lines for every pitch, even in mild weather.
The poles I use were tried on a Mountain Hardware Super Mega UL2 that was ordered and returned, and had no trouble flexing to the required curvature without any sign of strain. But no, the most curvature I have subjected carbon poles to in use has been that found in a TarpTent Moment (about 10 ft span, 42" height), or a typical wedge dome like the One Planet Goondie.
Were you to use elbows, as Roger does, or just simply use a slightly prebent alloy section at the center of the pole, either way I think you might find that the end covers you tailored so carefully would not be compatible with the new curvature. One nice thing about tent making is that any pole made of the same tubing throughout will flex to the same parabolic curve. I'm assuming that is what you did with your temporary poles, and that none of them have sections different from the others, or are prebent or elbowed at any point. At least that appears to be the case from your excellent photos.
So long story short, it might be best for you to go ahead with the FibraPlex poles, or just one of the four, and see how it behaves when flexed to fit your tent. When these poles first came out, there were a number of reports of breaks on this site, but they may have improved greatly. I know their ferrules definitely did, but cannot speak from experience about the poles. If you use them, please share your experience with everyone. We haven't heard much about them for quite some time.
I do want to correct one misimpression I've heard on this site, however, about arrow shafts. Many of the cheaper carbon arrows were pultruded and will crack at the drop of a hat. This may have given them a very bad rap. But some of the carbon arrow shafts are as strong as but more flexible than alloy poles, like DAC and Easton. These are shafts that are bonded with a high quality resin, and are filament wound. The flex is determined by placing them over a span of around two feet, and measuring the amount of deflection under the same weight, usually around two pounds. When a standardized set of specs are used, this deflection is called "spine" in the arrow industry. There is nothing special about carbon arrow tubing compared to other carbon tubing; they come in a number of different flexes, and like other carbon tubes, differ substantially based on quality of material and process of manufacture.Feb 18, 2015 at 9:16 pm #2175613
They can make them all right, but not for the masses.
The saddest part of the story is that in talking once to the people at Quest Outfitters, they advised that at one time Easton did make elbows for it's .344" dia. "nano" tubes, which happily, fit snugly over many carbon arrow shafts. But I've since learned that Easton now makes its elbows with the ferrules not just installed, but inside the entire length of the elbow, so even if you could get a min order of 100, they wouldn't work.
Short of making your own elbows as you have done, the only course I can think of would be to use one or two slightly prebent sections of Nanotube at the center of your carbon poles, thereby reducing the tension on the carbon portions of the poles; but you might lose the additional side-to-side headroom you get from the elbows. Or maybe you could use straight Nanotube at the center of the pole, but bent more sharply with your Rolling Jenny just before the alloy meets the carbon on each side, to create a parabola slightly flattened at the center to produce more headroom.
People worry that elbow bends on a pole set will make it hard to pack, but I've never found that to be the case. It is much more difficult to get one of those (expletive deleted) Hubba poles disassembled from its hubs and rotating top spreader and into the stuff sack. I'm always keeping an eye on potential tent parts, as it has become kind of a quest, so will most certainly let you know if anything turns up.Feb 19, 2015 at 12:44 am #2175635
> Easton now makes its elbows with the ferrules not just installed, but inside the
> entire length of the elbow, so even if you could get a min order of 100, they
> wouldn't work.
Not so fast. Have you actually seen one of them?
I do have some of those Easton elbows, and IF you can get the right angle, then they DO work just fine for CF poles. My problem has always been getting the Easton pole/elbow people to talk to me!
CheersFeb 19, 2015 at 3:24 am #2175638
James MarcoBPL Member
@jamesdmarcoLocale: Finger Lakes
A really good job! Are you posting a pattern?Feb 19, 2015 at 7:09 pm #2175912
Sam: Using elbow would render my tent poles useless as probes. I'm using no brand name aluminum poles for now without elbows. I really had no idea that the arrow shaft poles could take such a curve! My poles are 3.28m long and the tips are 1.85m apart when in the sleeve. Fibraplex had pole breakage issues when they curved poles for the Nallo 2 (the rear pole has a tighter curve). I have been assured by the Fibraplex guys that the 3 man tunnel had no pole issues. They also can modify the usual Nammatj 3 replacement poles to make them probes. Do you think arrow shaft could do the same. The Super Mega UL2's front pole makes me believe they can. Stiffer poles would make for better probes but would require more care during the insertion into the sleeve. You really got me interested. If you still have my email, I'd love some more details. If and when such an arrow shaft brakes, does it have a clean break?
Roger: I assume you don't have issues with the robustness of your pole sleeves because your poles have bends. The sleeve does not have to make the pole bend to shape. Plus, I'm a young(ish) male that spends too much time training… The cuben reinforced sleeve will help me remember what happens when I don't pay attention… Also, I found your very short explanation of how to make a better tent stuff sack but my brain can't seem to see how to get it done. Would it work to use a flat rectangle of silnylon with rounded corners with a rolled hem all around to place the draw cord in? Or is it better to use an actual 3D shape. Please, some remind me how I built a tent but still can't make a stuff sack!!!
Patterns: I would not dare call my Sketchup files and all my notes patterns. I have enough to easily make better (maybe) versions. I'm happy to share what I have but it would have many holes in the instructions simply because some of it was intuitive to me or because I got lazy… At some point I needed to move ahead in the project instead of writing everything down.Feb 19, 2015 at 9:02 pm #2175943
First, here are some pix, first one of an arc made of the most sturdy Gold Tip shaft:
Pole end to Pole end on the pad = 74", and the height top center is ~52". The white bands show where ferrules or connections are present.
Next, the above pole with a pre-bent Easton .344" OD tube, pictured in the above photo, substituted for a carbon section at the top center:
And last, a similar arc using the sturdy 300 spine Victory pole that Roger has recommended. It is a bit heavier than the Gold Tip, but stiffer, so the arc has more resistance to side-to-side movement. Because the Victory shafts are slightly shorter, the height at top center is down to just over 50":
I was going to use the Gold Tips for a tent in progress, but in taking these pix, am reconsidering the stiffer Victories instead. They are strong, but slightly weaker than the Gold Tips, but will make the tent more stable when camping in protected spots and not wanting to guy out in all four directions. It is a difficult choice, because the stronger and more flexible Gold Tips are less likely to break in severe wind, and will stay in place if the structure is guyed out in 4 directions.
Should you have any problems with the FibraPlex poles, let me know and with your specs, I'll send you one pole unit to see how you like it. We would have to talk $ for four poles, because the cost for the shafts for the poles and ferrules, while not exorbitant, is not inexpensive either.
Lastly, don't want to pour cold water, but the carbon avalanche probes I've seen were made of much heaver carbon, more substantial like a trekking pole, and so were much stiffer than a tunnel tent pole. I could see using an alloy tent pole for a probe, particularly one of the heavier alloy tent poles from Easton (see Quest Outfitters website), because even at its high temper, the alloy is more likely to bend rather than break under pressure. The carbon, however, does not bend permanently at all; but only breaks at its breaking point. Contrary to popular belief, the carbon arrow shafts are less stiff than most of the Easton or DAC tent poles, although the stiffer Victory shown above is about the same stiffness as the Easton Nanotube .344" OD. So carbon poles may not be the answer for you. Of course if you only need one or two probes, two or three carbon poles would lighten your tent weight considerably.
Lastly, in break testing carbon poles and shafts, with the exception of pultruded carbon, the breaks produced rough and irregular edges, but did not splinter. They do make quite a loud crack, though, with enough force to damage the mechanism on the hang scale being used to measure the pounds of pressure exerted at the time of the break.
Hope that is helpful, and of interest to readers.Feb 19, 2015 at 10:22 pm #2175953
David GardnerBPL Member
@gearmakerLocale: Northern California
Awesome work Pierre. Man I wish I knew how to sew like that!Feb 19, 2015 at 10:58 pm #2175956
Dale WambaughBPL Member
@dwambaughLocale: Pacific Northwest
I wonder if I could rig my hammock through something like that :)Feb 20, 2015 at 3:21 am #2175967
> I assume you don't have issues with the robustness of your pole sleeves because your
> poles have bends.
This could be so. Note Sam's comments about pole stiffness too.
> Would it work to use a flat rectangle of silnylon with rounded corners with a rolled
> hem all around to place the draw cord in? Or is it better to use an actual 3D shape.
The flat rectangle might work, but I think it could be tricky in the field trying to keep the tent together while pulling up the cord.
What I use is a 3D shape like a shoe box, with the cord around the top edge. You can stuff the tent into the 'box' first, get it all in, and then draw up the cord.
I think I rounded the ends of the box a bit, just to be nice.
CheersFeb 20, 2015 at 3:31 am #2175968
I haven't tested Gold Tip, so I just don't know. I did test Carbon Express, and found they are crap.
> make the tent more stable when camping in protected spots and not wanting to guy out
> in all four directions.
Ah well, I don't think I have ever pitched any of my tunnels without using ALL the guys. Maybe I am ultra-conservative.
> carbon arrow shafts are less stiff than most of the Easton or DAC tent poles
The ones i use are comparable in stiffness. I did a LOT of spine testing at one stage.
> breaks produced rough and irregular edges, but did not splinter.
> They do make quite a loud crack, though,
Well, sounded more like a cannon boom to me at the time (about 3 am?)!
> with enough force to damage the mechanism on the hang scale being used
Or the tent sleeve …
CheersFeb 20, 2015 at 5:19 pm #2176216
First, re the Easton elbows discussed several posts ago. At one time Quest Outfitters carried elbows for the Nanotube .344" poles. But for the last ten years anyway, for the lighter poles, they carry only elbows for the stronger (and heavier)
.340" poles, but not the lighter Fly or Nanotubes. The ferrules run right through the elbow without a break. Quest was unaware of this. I found out only because the weight was heavier than it should have been, so I probed the inside of the elbow and found no breaks in the surface. This makes the elbows quite strong though.
They come in 145, and more recently, 125 degree angles from Quest. I've fooled around with drilling them out, but have ordered elbows from Fibraplex because they are as strong as I want, and carbon and/or fiberglass tubes with an OD of .248-.25" fit snugly into them without having to fool with boring that weakens the elbows and affects the temper.
If you could get the Easton poles without the ferrule tubes inside, I'd be surprised, because if they make the .340s that way, I'd expect them to be consistent.
With respect to the cannon boom, I imagine it is much quieter in Australia at 3 AM than here next to NH's largest tourist trap, sometimes referred to by locals as the 'heart of darkness.' I must have break tested several dozen carbon tubes, and was never deterred by the crack. Shop goggles are probably advisable though. And clean up of self and clothing is important to limit exposure to carbon fiber particles. When sawing the stuff, I also use a dust mask, which eliminates the pungent odor of carbon fiber in the air.
With respect to tent sleeves, I note that TarpTent has typically used a nylon slightly heavier than the 30D silnylon that may be treated with DWR or something, but has no visible coating. That may help with easier installation of the poles into the sleeves without sticking.
When I was first using carbon tubes, I had some breaks in less robust poles inside the sleeves, but there was never any tearing of the sleeves. A bigger problem was the pole tips of the type designed to go into grommets getting caught in the sleeves and sometimes possibly causing tears. So now I use internal end caps that are milled and buffed at the outer end to be slightly rounded. They are either the end caps that typically come with arrow shafts, or the plastic ones sold by Goodwinds. With a little drilling or boring, they accommodate 3/32" shock cord that can be knotted inside the end of the pole tip. The poles ends are then attached to the tent and held in place by keepers or 'receptors' that are made by disassembling acetal swivel hooks and using the half with a loop that can be sewn to grosgrain or twill tape. 3/4" acetal buckles are sewn with tape to the tent where desired, and the tape from the 'receptor' can then be adjusted in the buckle. This allows the tent to be tightened over the poles as is commonly the case with tents using more proprietary devices. I hope that is clear. When the next tent is posted, I'll be sure to include close-ups. For now here is a photo of a receptor (on the far right):
You make an excellent argument by implication for using the slightly lighter, stronger and more flexible Gold Tip shafts, rather than the stiffer Victories, and using all guyouts all the time. In a real blow, which can arrive unannounced, and where the need for a tent becomes critical, that is probably the better option, so long as the stakes hold.
Now as for the 'Not So Fast' comment, hah-hah, please keep in mind that this is the all-time tortoise of MYOG you're posting with here. Here's wishing you many more happy MYOGs.
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