Winter Camping questions: Long sleeping bags, wet gear, overboots and light weight trail runners

I've never worn trail runners in winter even with overboots, but not saying you shouldn't just that I have not.
trail runners in summer peak bagging work very well with the Kahtoola crampons designed for trail runners.
years ago when I lived in Alaska I wore Mukluks down to -20* and they worked fine, no technical adventures in them though.

This comes from decades of winter backcountry camping.

1. SLEEPING BAG-> Get one size longer for storage of water, battery operated gear, boot liners or boots in a stuff sack. Be SURE to get a down bag with Dri Down, Down Tech or similar down DWR treatment. A recent Backpacker Magazine review of these bags found they actually dried much faster than synthetic bags!
Finally, if wearing a WPB shell like eVent or GTX pull the sleeves inside, zip it up and close the hood drawstrings. Then put the parka over the foot of your sleeping bag. This gives both more warmth and keeps the heat from your bag from melting, and wetting your bag when the foot touches the frosty walls of your tent. This is more important than you may at first believe.

2. BOOT SUGGESTIONS-> You absolutely MUST keep your boot insulation dry and this means wearing Vapor Barrier Linings (VBL). You can buy waterproof and seam sealed ripstop socks or, my favorite by far, thin neoprene diver's socks that you seam seal. Neoprene diver's socks, being a closed cell foam, are very warm and require no socks over them, unlike ripstop VBLs. Wear synthetic (NOT silk) liner socks beneath the VBLs and change them daily B/C they will be sopping wet at day's end.
The VBLs come off before beddy-byes and get turned inside out to dry for a while before putting them in your bag. (Wear heavy "sleep-only" socks to bed)

Boot liners come out of the shells and go into the foot of your bag in a stuffsack to keep them drier. Shell tops get telescoped over one another and set in your vestibule. If you are skiing I suggest plastic shelled boots with removable liners. otherwise felt pac boots with wool or polypropelene felt liners. You can wear the lighter NEOS overboots rather than the heavy traditional felt pac overboots.

Then in the morning you'll have nice warm feet for making breakfast and breaking camp. Cold feet in the AM can be very dangerous and result in frostbite or worse depending on the temps.

BTW, "Trail Runners" are for summertime ONLY unless you are going home at day's end and can risk using them in winter. Winter is a very unforgiving season and mistakes can result in the loss of digits or worse.

P.S. Please move this post to "Winter Hiking".

I did a nice trip in March in Michigan – included snowshoeing on a frozen Lake Superior and through deep snow. Wore micro-spikes for a short bit, but mostly the snowshoes. Daytime temps, with wind chill, were in the teens and below, if I remember correctly, and below 0 overnight with wind chill.

We were out for three days. We both wore trailrunners with VBL socks (and liner sock) with 40 Below Light Energy overboots. My feet never got cold. Not even standing around at dinner or during lunch breaks. My trailrunners never got wet (I put them in the bottom of my sleeping bag at night, left the 40 below overboots out of my bag, but in my shelter next to me (so on the snow, since my shelter has no floor).

My hiking partner for that trip has made many winter trips – trailrunners with 40 below overboots is his norm when snowshoeing/hiking, I believe.

What the heck are "40 Below Overboots"??

Google is your friend

40Below

"What the heck are "40 Below Overboots"??"

I'm surprised you don't recognize the name, Eric. Have you read the 3 part series on winter footwear systems what Will and Janet did? Its worth checking out.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_footwear_systems_for_snow_travel_part_1.html#.U97MdPldWSq

Here is a link to the first article. If you just change the 1 to a 2 or 3 in the url, you'll get to the 2nd and 3rd parts.

Thanks, Doug, for the feedback on the light energy boots. It seems like it would be a pretty successful and versatile system outside of more significant mountaineering pursuits.

I think I've decided to go with the regular sized bag. I'm quite thin so storing stuff alongside my body seems to work fine. I can fit my trail runners, two nalgenes, and a fuel container without much issue. I'm not worried about headlamps and batteries since they are so small and I typically put them near the top of my bag so they are easily in reach at night. The 6'6'' just has too much extra space for my liking. That is just more space to heat up and maintain.

Those are CAMP boots with no sole tread pattern. Slick as snot on a doorknob.

Plus I seriously doubt how long the uppers fabric will hold up if bushwhacking.

And you Still need a VBL for overnight winter camping.

NEOS are about as light as you'll get for durable overboots with well lugged treads.

**UNABASHED RETRACTION OF THIS POST: (See my next post)

Oh Eric. You ancients are such a bore sometimes.

They're not camp boots, fer crying out loud. They're made to be worn with either snowshoes or micro-spikes/crampons. They are made to be used on the move. Yes, not by themselves. So what.

And I specifically stated that I used a VBL as part of my footwear system, so, like, no shit.

As far as durability, hmmmmm. I guess you probably know better than Andy Skurka, who used them during his Sea to Sea walk in '04-'05. Or Ed Viesturs, who used his 40 Below Purple Haze overboots in Antarctica. Not as camp boots.

From the 40 Below Light Energy TR overboot page: We have had several very unique trips that have used the Forty Below Light Energy overboots. A very unique trip by Andrew Skurka used two different test pairs on his remarkable 7,775 mile Sea-to-Sea walk (C2C) in 2004-05, used on over 1,000 miles with his light weight trail shoes in the Midwest States during the winter months with snowshoes. … The Wilderness Classroom Group used test pairs on a several hundred mile dogsled/snowshoe/ cross country ski trip in Canada. … Several bikers have used them on their bike shoes with pedal clips for cold temperature use, most notibly in the arctic fat tire bike/ultra races in Minnesota, Alaska, and beyond. The Cascades Mountain Range, and especially Mt. Rainier which we are located next to, has been our “local use zone”.

"BTW, "Trail Runners" are for summertime ONLY unless you are going home at day's end and can risk using them in winter. Winter is a very unforgiving season and mistakes can result in the loss of digits or worse."

What about wearing non waterproof low cut shoes with goretex oversocks over thick wool socks in relatively warm winter conditions?

del

I'm 5'8" and just use a regular size down bag in winter. I often put 1 bottle of water and my trail runners or boot liners in the bag with me, although usually near my stomach, thighs or knees because they cool my feet off too much when I'm trying to warm up the bag. Another option is to bury warm water in snow 12" down or so and upside down. I find it very worthwhile to have somewhat warm and unfrozen shoes or liners, but I've worn them frozen before. They could be dangerously cold, depending on your physiology and foot circulation. The fit of frozen trail runners is not good either.

I wear trail runners down to a predicted morning hiking temp of around 15F. I wear them with thin neoprene socks (got the idea from Eric), thick wool socks, and Rocky Gore-Tex socks. I can't sit around camp with them very long unless there's a fire. I'm able to do wear all of this with slightly oversized Inov8 Roclite 295's which I also wear the rest of the year. The fit is almost too snug though.

For colder, I use the same socks, except the outer shell is Tingley rubber overboots. The liners are Steger wool felt mukluk liners. I also sometimes use wool felt insoles or NEOS 10 mm EVA insoles for added insulation on the bottom. I've used these as low as -15F with a -32F windchill, but just walking, snowshoeing, and doing general camp chores rather than sitting around. I'll definitely give the 40 Below overboots a try when the gear budget allows.

I've been experimenting with the non waterproof shoe/ waterproof sock combo because I am a die hard minimalist shoe user, switching to boots or even stiff running shoes is torture for me. It doesn't really have anything to do with weight or cost for me since I need to use larger dedicated shoes anyways. There are some minimalist waterproof boots out there but I'm not totally sure about the quality of them yet.

What I like about the goretex sock option is that you don't have to worry about water getting over the top of your boots which makes it more reliable in sloppy conditions.

I've only used it a few times so I'm not totally sure about it. I need to get some fairly minimalist shoes with thicker soles because the ultra thin shoes I use don't provide much protection from conduction with snow.

If I was in snowshoes all day, then having flexible shoes wouldn't matter much for me. But I would still hate standing a platform with heel rise and arch support.

So, my personal issues aside, I kind of agree with you.
On the other hand, my armchair perspective is that I don't see any practical difference between wool socks in goretex socks in mesh shoes and wool socks in a gortex lined leather boot. But that is my armchair perspective.

the winters are usually pretty mild. I didn't wear "snow" boots at all the last two years. I used my trail runners coupled with slip on crampons or snow shoes and regular socks and or gore tex socks as the conditions warranted. I've had my shoes freeze stiff which could be stupid if you were to get injured or in some other pinch but I've never had an issue. If I'm cold and at camp I make a fire, also never had a hard time making a fire so getting warm for me is a non issue.
As for sizing up the sleeping bag, I definitely wouldn't. Keep the bare essentials in the correctly sized bag and be more thermally efficient.

"If I was in snowshoes all day, then having flexible shoes wouldn't matter much for me. "

Not sure why you say this, since only your toe/ball of your foot is anchored to the snowshoe, so flexibility is still nice. To me anyway.

And to Rick's: you have to get a bigger shoe anyway: well, yes, but if I didn't get the shoes I'd have to get boots that I don't own, so I'm still having to get something extra. I prefer the shoes. And extra faff. :-)

Doug, I've never been in snow deep enough to warrant snowshoes, so that was just an empty assumption. That's good to know though. I've been in lighter snow/shoulder season type conditions plenty of times, but never real deep snow.

I'm planning on taking the plunge into deep winter camping this winter and I'm doing all the research I can and buying the gear early.

"I'm planning on taking the plunge into deep winter camping this winter and I'm doing all the research I can and buying the gear early."

You'll have fun! I enjoy winter camping. Worst time for me is the morning packing up – I'm still trying to figure out how to keep my fingers warm. Ike had to scold me for being such a whining crybaby. :-)

"Worst time for me is the morning packing up – I'm still trying to figure out how to keep my fingers warm."

Wool liner gloves with the thumb and forefinger tip cut off so that you don't have to remove them for detailed tactile work, like tying a shoelace. They'll get wet messing with stakes and guylines in the snow. Just slap them silly… err dry… on your pants or gaiters.

Edit: And if they still get cold, give them a whirl (centrifugal-forced blood flow) or a nice smelly armpit break!

OK, my fault for not scrolling down further in the "40 BELOW" site and seeing their excellent overboots.

I fully retract my criticism. The "40 BELOW" boots are like NEOS on steroids.

Thanks for informing me about these very interesting boots. My old NEOS are crumbling and I need replacements. The "40 BELOW" boots look like what I need for snowshoeing and late season hunting, which often can require snowshoes.

P.S. While I may be ancient I try not to be "stoopid". I've just been schooled.

"I fully retract my criticism."

Well, in that case, I'll change my statement: Oh, Eric, you ancients are so blind some times…..

I've been winter camping in the BWCA and/or Minnesota for a couple years now.

I prefer a long sleeping bag as I stick layers, hats, gloves, socks, water bottles/etc down there. I have a -40F (non-treated) down bag and regularly see temps -20F to -40F, never had an issue. it's really nice to just grab layers from the bottom of your bag to put on in the morning vs. putting on cold ones and trying to warm them up. Also, your water bottle in your bag is nearly essential to keep it from freezing.

I wear Steger Mukluks (Camuks) exclusively in the winter and have never used VBL's. In fact one year I hit water while crossing a frozen lake and went up past my ankle in water and wet snow. The worst I've ever had was some stiff wool liners in the morning from sweat/moisture the day before, walk around for 5 minutes and go cut some wood and you'll warm right up.

EDIT: I forgot to add, I've never put my mukluks and/or liners in my bag at night, I've always left them out in the tent.

" prefer a long sleeping bag as I stick layers, hats, gloves, socks, water bottles/etc down there."

I'd be worried about storing too much clothing in my bag. Especially anything that was worn that day. Liner cloves and socks make sense to dry them out, but any layers larger than that and I think I'd be running the risk of introducing too much moisture into the bag. I suppose its normal to climb into the bag with some layers on, do you then kick them to the bottom of the bag as you warm up?

If you talking about clothing for the next day, I would think that could be stored outside in the pack. It would warm up pretty fast just by pulling it in the bag in the morning.

"but any layers larger than that and I think I'd be running the risk of introducing too much moisture into the bag."

layers from that day, layers for tomorrow – I've done it both ways without issues. nothing thicker than a mid-layer grid fleece. Now, none of these lays are soaking wet of course but they can be a little somewhat damp. My bag is non-treated down and again I've never had an issue. I'll sometimes take layers off and kick them to the bottom and/or then grab them from the bottom later in the night if it gets colder. knowing its in the bottom of my bag is easier than trying to reach out of my bag/etc in the middle of the night.

Most of my trips are in deep deep winter in the Boundary Waters in northern Minnesota. All my info is from first hand experience and it works for me.

I always fill a nalgene with hot water before bed and keep that in the bottom of my bag also which helps regulate the temp and warm the foot box – again, never had an issue with cold feet or myself being cold.