My idea of the ultimate family backpacking tent has just been launched on Kickstarter!

Thanks for posting Mike, I got your email from Kickstarter and was going to post it up this afternoon, but you beat me to it.

I wish I had the funds, because I would definitely buy one from you.

A little off thread here, but I really love my Deuce of Spades, it came in handy on my last hike, not only as a potty trowel but also as a shoe horn.

I broke my ankle, and over night the ankle swelled so big I couldn't pull my shoe on without causing more pain, so I thought, wait a minute I have the Deuce, I can use that as a shoe horn.
It worked great for both uses, Thanks, sorry for the thread drift, but I really appreceate quality products, and your's truly are.

I hope you do well on this one also, and who knows if I can get back to work soon I still may be able to get the funds for the 3 man RugRat.

Jack

Hi jack,
Yikes! A broken ankle sounds like the real deal ordeal. Hope it mends quickly for you.
My ankles roll easily (from years of ankle rolling) and I'm now constantly reminded to pay attention.
Thanks for the kind words and I agree, the Deuce shoehorns pretty darned well.
Best,
Mike

My kids are grown and gone and I normally go solo, but this tent is too nice not to promote. I'll do what I can with my younger friends.

edit…. makes me wish I still had kids at home :)

Huge thanks! I really need help from well-wishers like yourself. I really appreciate it.
Best,
Mike

Best of luck Mike. I recently purchased a Copper Spur UL4 or I would be all over it.

Ryan

I appreciate the sentiment.
Best,
Mike

"I promise LOTS of provocative information and an utterly fair presentation."

|prəˈväkətiv| adjective
causing annoyance, anger, or another strong reaction, esp. deliberately: a provocative article | his provocative remarks on race.
• arousing sexual desire or interest, esp. deliberately.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=58954&skip_to_post=505818#505818

Best of luck Mike, looks like a very cool tent. Now just make a large part of the floor a big checkers board – that would be fun!

I don't know whether to be more impressed with the excellent design thinking or the clear, straightforward, no-bs Kickstarter page. Can't wait to see where this goes.

And I second Doug's gameboard suggestion — perhaps swappable checkers/backgammon/twister liners, that snap in a la Nemo's Pawprints?

Very nice. Would take some convincing of the wife since we already own something like six tents but we'll see. :)

One suggestion, and I know it would probably be a pain, but I'd make sure that any of the youtube videos you do in the future are at 720p or 1080p and a high bit rate. It really helps to make the presentation look sharp. Other than that it looks like everything is perfect, congrats!

Mike,

I learned a lot about tent design from your Kickstarter page. Now I understand why my ultralight silnylon tents are saggy every morning – and it's not my fault.

I really, really like the design for whitewater rafting. I've watched many kinds of tents fail on windy river beaches, especially in the Grand Canyon. Sleeping on the beach in the heat with a towel around your face to keep some blowing sand out, well, it isn't really sleeping.

I'm not in the market for a tent like Rugrat now, maybe in a couple years, I hope the Rugrat succeeds.

Thanks, and good luck.

— Rex

Thank you all!

Ken – Very funny! Yup that dictionary definitely has sex on its mind. I am. of course, going for something more along the lines of 'provoke' as in 'stir up' . Especially in regard to bringing up pesky properties of nylon fabrics. To read some of the marketing out there you would think they were married to nylon. Which maybe comes back to the definition you quote – no no no. Not going there. ;)

Doug & Will – I love it. I'll mull it a bit. Probably will have to wait for another offering.

Eric – Completely understood. Kickstarter allows only 640 so it became a expedient to just go with that everywhere. I'll be redoing the setup video in HD if the project is successful. In the meantime I'll put up my HD version of the rotating tent. I think it really helps one 'get' the shape and structure.

Rex – Thanks! That reminds me: I'll also put up a video on our YouTube channel of a windstorm I was in on the San Juan. Experiences like that really are, um, memorable aren't they. Understood on having tents sorta like it already – one guess who I'm thinking of – and of course I'm trying to make my minimum production… BUT there are no plans to make these again. It's now or (much) later. I'll also be adding the ability to order an extra rainfly. The UV resistance of the high tenacity polyester fabrics is very very good but boaters like yourself (or really anyone camping in the SW) might want an extra. Non-UV damage also happens.

Thanks again!
Mike

Really enjoyed the videos and the whole presentation on your Kickstarter page. You really highlight the fact that there is no free lunch in tent design, only a series of trade-offs between this and that. If you want to tear resistance of nylon, you give up the superior UV and wet sagging resistance of polyester, etc.

In the case of a "4 person" car-camping family tent, I'm not sure that weight savings is really high on the list of priority features — although I guess two people could conceivably backpack the tent. On the other hand, your thicker PU coatings for additional margin in waterproofing certainly is a priority feature.

All in all, interesting stuff.

Hi hmc,
Thanks for checking the tent out. I'm very happy you enjoyed it and found it interesting. You bring up two very good points I should probably address: tear strength and car-camping.

In the waterproofness section I mentioned that I asked quite a few major brand repair departments about leaking. That isn't all I asked about. I also asked if they have ever had a tent returned where the problem could be traced to insufficient tear strength of the fabrics. Disregarding UV damage the answer, without exception, was "No." So ALL tents are being made with tear strengths above what is needed. All the back and forth about tear strength is meaningless (perhaps excepting some super-severe conditions like polar travel). For me this wasn't surprising because I think it's very clear that the main property that is needed is TENSILE strength and all our fabrics do extremely well in tensile tests. In other words, if high stress points are reinforced, no one has any real idea of how low the tear strength can be before problems are experienced by the customer. In fact, every repair department also had stories about tents sent back for a repair that practically fell apart in the service person's hands because of UV damage – but UV damage wasn't related to the requested repair!

A side issue is abrasion resistance: all lightweight tent fabrics are terrible. No getting around it. Nylon, polyester, whatever – they're bad and customers experience problems in real life because of it. I don't see any solutions. Repair tapes have become pretty darned good…

The RugRats' size, weight and cost put them in an odd place. It is lighter and more compact and stronger than any regular car-camping tent. It IS a backpacking tent but because of the state of the art in polyester fabrics, it can't match the lightest tents made from nylon. It's common wisdom that backpackers all want the absolute lightest tent possible but this tent dares to question that. For all the features and utility that the RugRats bring, they weigh roughly 2 lbs more – 20-30%

What this all means is we have an unusual ideal customer:
• Backpackers that like superb gear who are traveling as a group where the tent weight is split up.
• Parents with small kids who will probably go for very short distances with quite a lot of weight. The tent fits well with their intentions – reliable fun outdoors.
• Rafters, kayakers and canoers are all going to appreciate the lower weight and bulk, higher strength, AND our zipper/sand feature. Gear for tandem ducky trips is like backpacking in almost every way. Everything is ultralight except the cooler and the groover (toilet). And even the big rafts run out of space at some point. Commercial trips very much limit what you can bring.
• A certain kind of car-camper who rejects the more-more-more style of camping in favor of a fast and light approach will also find the RugRat most excellent. It's not so big that it needs it's own duffel bag to carry it and you can have it down and stored before the campsite next to you even figures out how to re-fold their camp kitchen. It's also much stronger than taller tents, so it can be left up when everyone is out playing without worrying about it.
• (edit added, thanks Vincent!) Music festival campers – lots of travel and a genuine need for strength without guy lines

I talk too much,
Mike

>>> A side issue is abrasion resistance: all lightweight tent fabrics are terrible. No getting around it. Nylon, polyester, whatever – they're bad and customers experience problems in real life because of it. I don't see any solutions. Repair tapes have become pretty darned good…

I don't see the recent trend towards 15 and 20 denier tent fabrics helping much with that. I know the 15 denier fabrics on ultralight down jackets have to be treated with great care. I have my doubts that these gossamer thin fabrics will be a long term match for rocky NH terrain when used as tent floors. I also question the 1200 mm waterproofing on tent floors, perhaps not when brand new, but after some abrasion has taken a toll on the coating. It seems that you must share that concern.

I enjoyed your webpage and videos because you presented the design choices in the context of the tradeoffs.

I chuckled because I own three of the tents from your "worked on" list: a vintage 1st generation Meteor Light (now retired). My car camping tent is a Marmot Halo 4P (the 12 pound tent you mention). And I just got a Marmot Eclipse 2P for backpacking.

Excellent! That meteor Light was one of my first tents where I can say I did every aspect of its design; even the patterns. I use the term "worked on" just because there are so many aspects that I may not have been a part of. That's especially true for reworking or improving an existing design like I did on some of the Easton and Litefighter tents, for example.

You're right that I do worry about long term durability of floors (not the rest of the tent so much). When I was at Kelty, we spec'd 1800mm floors just to be sure they were 1500mm waterproof (QC wasn't as good back then) and we could honestly say our tents held up well over the years. I'm confident that 20D floors can be quite good. Pretty sure that 15D will work with a small amount of care, and just don't know about 10D floors. It comes down to personal choice at some point. Personally I'm OK with putting a hole in something and repairing it with tape. Beats hauling around one of those footprints that store sales people seem eager to twist customer's arms over (don't get me started on REI's footprint policies).

Please feel free to ask me about anything further either here or at mike@thetentlab.com
Same goes for any other forum readers.

Best, Mike