three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack?

[Ito Jakuchu]

As an aside, Philippe Gatta is now running 250Km in Madagascar with 9Kg on his back (Berghaus pack). Seven days, self supported.

[Mike M]

^ that looks like a pretty big pack :)

another pack that is worth looking at imo is the Rev24, I own the 1.5 and most recently the 12- they really carry nicely

[Wolf’s Rain]

I just checked out the hydration pocket on my dragon in preparation for a possible trip tomorrow (thunderstorm forecast again…grrrr). The opening is pretty small. In a similar fashion as the mesh pocket, it sort of limits how easily things can be stored and removed. It also just doesn't seem like it would be comfortable having a bladder in there but I could be wrong.

A 2 liter bottle fits if you roll it up and unfold it once inside. You can also move it in and out when it has about a liter in it. A 1 liter soft bottle can be placed inside and removed when the bottle is full. All this was done with a completely empty pack. If it was full of gear, I would guess this would make it substantially more difficult.

My guess would be the most comfortable option is a bladder that is nearly as big as the panel. A 2 liter platty fits this criteria, but I think in practice (with a full pack) it would be difficult to place / remove unless the bladder was nearly empty. This limits its usefulness for me as I would want to use it to fill my bottles / drink from directly. I would not want to use a hydration tube. I would also not want to have to fill the thing when it is inside the pocket.

All of this is YMMV because it was tested on an empty pack and I didn't try all possible water volumes on the 2 liter platty. I also didn't load the pack and check for comfort. I was just messing around to get a rough idea of how it would work.

[Mike M]

I noticed that when I thought maybe a sit pad or my neoair folded up in the pocket as a possibility, it was a no go w/ the narrow opening

[Wolf’s Rain]

I got the Dragon out today for a run / hike at the local hill packed with a full kit. I changed the weight distribution inside the pack and it seemed to take care of most of the bounce I experienced on my previous trip. Food / fuel is probably the heaviest thing I carry and I typically put it near the top for easy access. I put it near the middle / bottom and that seemed to help a lot. I'll just get in the habit of splitting off the days fuel to the outside mesh pocket and keeping the rest stored near the bottom of the main bag. The total packed weight was also less than my previous trip which I'm sure helped as well. It seemed about as stable as you could hope for considering the demands being placed on a pack when running / moving fast.

[Mike M]

^ good deal :)

[Ito Jakuchu]

That is very nice to hear.

And echoes/confirms what Meghan Hicks writes about loading her running pack
"Think about weight distribution. Get the heaviest stuff to the bottom of your pack to get it to ride low and close to your personal center of gravity."

I haven't been able to take mine out in the mountains yet (and it will be a while before I can) but agree with all the user thoughts so far.

Very nice fit. Fits me better than any other vest I have tried on.
Very small hydration bladder sleeve opening (kind of a cruel joke – "we thought about it, but will do it proper in 2.0").
Top shoulder "load" straps do their job really well.

I will just add a soft bottle or two to the inside of my pack, and have a the two bottles up front with fuel, and take a waist belt to add another litre. With two litres at immediate access I'm good for 3 hours which will work fine for me.
I also think that side pockets would not work on this pack. Because it really works like a running hydration vest the length is proper upper torso length. You wouldn't really be able to reach the bottles with the pack on. Could still be nice to have the pockets for something else though, or to quickly access bottles when taking pack off.

I roll a very thin short ccf pad (sheet?) in mine to create a tube and pack things inside.
I think it would be nice to have an ULA Ohm type compression on the sides (more so than on the front). Might be an easy project to do by yourself.

[Mike M]

I played around w/ pads this evening. I took my 3/8" 20×59" pad and trimmed it to 18×40" (18" fits better lengthwise in the pack than 20"), I then scored three sections 10" apart (giving me four 10" sections). It looks like it might actually work, lying flat against the back of the pack. The weight of the pad is now a svelte 3.4 oz, I have several lengths of 1/8" thinlight pads- so I'll probably add another 1.5-2.0 oz w/ it. Should give me a r value just under 2 which should be OK inside a bivy to close to freezing.

Not going to be near as cozy as my Neoair, but about a 1/2 lb lighter :)

[Wolf’s Rain]

The UD Fastpack arrived this afternoon. Time to do some comparisons! Initial impressions are similar to what we already guessed, that both packs have qualities that we wished were combined into one. I'm going to load it up and mess around with it this evening and over the next few days. I'll have to decide if its worth pulling tags off and using it for my trip this weekend.

If anyone has specific questions regarding the Montane Dragon, UD Fastpack, or even the SMD Flight 30 or 40, feel free to ask.

[Ito Jakuchu]

I'm personally mostly interested in how they compare in their respective size, fit and ride. Rides low, more narrow or more depth etc. Even just without words – showing the packs when you have them on your back, snapshots as opposed to product photography, would be very insightful.

Or just your general impressions. I think what you wrote before was quite clear as well.
Very curious what you think of them all and how they work for different runs/fast packing trips..

[Wolf’s Rain]

I've packed / unpacked the Dragon and Fastpack with the exact same kit. So far I've only wore them around the house a bit to try and gain some initial impressions.

From a purely subjective / aesthetic view, I give the nod to the Fastpack. I think its just a great looking pack all around. I also like the fabric feel on the Fastpack over the more crinkly, techie feeling Dragon. The Fastpack has a softer, cloth like feel which makes it a pleasure to pack and handle. It also gives me the sense of being more durable.

That said, the Dragon does seem to pull ahead in terms of fit and carry. It really does have an amazing fitting vest and bottle system. Juxtaposed to the Fastpack, you really notice how comfortable the bottles on the Dragon are when they are on the shoulder straps. Montane did a great job at placing them at the perfect height and giving the bottle just enough flatness and curve. This may be a YMMV thing, but they really fit me well. I'm surprised that Ultimate Direction hasn't put more effort into designing bottles specifically for their race vests. I have two of their 20oz kickers and they are basically just traditional, round water bottles. They dig into your chest a bit when placed in the shoulder strap pouches. I do have two of their body bottles coming tomorrow and I imagine they will fit much better. However, they are only 420ml as appose to the 600ml kickers and 500ml+ Montanes.

The Fastpack is not an uncomfortable pack by any means, it just lacks a bit when compared to the Dragon in terms of comfort / support. I think UD did themselves a small disservice by not designing a vest system specifically for the Fastpack. It seems they transferred their signature series vest to the Fastpack, but the increased capacity of the pack and its intended usage demands some changes IMHO. Load lifters on the shoulder straps, more substantial support across the rib cage and under the arm, and a multi-point adjustment strap system should definitely be considered in revisions going forward.

The vest pockets on the Fastpack are a bit small. They really wouldn't hold too much besides maybe some electrolyte tabs. I was able to fit 3 gels in one of the pockets, but even that isn't a comfortable fit. The bottle pockets seem to fit UD's 20oz kickers just fine. I'll have to check for any outward creep when running. One of the bottle pockets has a zipper that allows you to change its capacity for either a large bottle or zipped shut for something like a gel flask. It seems to work as intended but doesn't fit the 20oz kicker quite as well as the regular pocket. In my opinion, they definitely need to make the vest more functional in terms of storage capacity. Maybe a cross between their Wasp series and the current style. I think for this type of pack, you should be able to store something like a headlamp, beanie, gels, or gloves without issue. Maybe not all of those at the same time, but certainly a combination of two of those items depending on time of day, weather, etc. The stretch pocket on the back in phenomenal though. They completely nailed it with this aspect so it makes up a bit for the lack of vest storage. I do wish the vest simply had more room for gels and spent gels though but I'm sure it will work well enough. The Dragon's vest storage isn't perfect, but its a small step ahead with its larger zipped pocket that can accommodate gels easily and probably even a headlamp.

Like I mentioned in the previous paragraph, the Fastpack's mesh pocket is huge and functional. It has just the right amount of stretch and its color / feel really add to the aesthetics of the pack. The side pockets are also done pretty well. I tested them out with a full pack and they can be accessed with the pack on. The design of UDs kicker bottles really helps here because they have a little finger grab loop. Its a two handed maneuver, but they can be placed and removed with the pack on without too much discomfort. Its not ideal maybe but it certainly works for being able to access extra water / fuel on the move. If you have a very pronounced elbow / arm swing, you may bump into the bottles when they are in the pockets. It is certainly possible to swing your elbow back and contact one, but probably won't be an issue in the vast majority of movements. I'll find out more during actual use though.

I'm sure I'll have more to say once I reread this post as I probably missed something. Keep in mind this is all without using the Fastpack in the field. I really want to like the pack because it does so many things right. It also just flat out appeals to me. I've had great experiences with Ultimate Direction's Wasp vest, having owned several iterations. I also love their handhelds. I've had very good experience with their customer service when I had an issue with a defective Wasp water bladder. They sent me a whole new pack without question even though I didn't notice the issue till a year or more after purchase (I prefered using handhelds and didn't even test the bladder for quite some time). I'll probably be taking it on my trip this weekend so should get some real good insight into how it performs.

[Wolf’s Rain]

A couple things I forgot to comment on:

The removable pad on the Fastpack is a nice feature. With my kit, I found the pack to be better fitting without the pad. This may be a personal preference thing though as it sounds like several of you are trying to add pads to your Dragon. As long as you have soft items in general to pack against the back, I don't think the pad is totally necessary. It would be great for more awkwardly packed items or when you can't for some reason put softer gear against your back (quilt, puffy, etc.). In my opinion, it seams like it would be too difficult to remove / insert to be of any use for a quick stop sit pad. Offhand though I like the way its been implemented and its nice to have the option.

The Fastpack has a zippered pocket alongside the back mesh pocket. It will be great for items you want to easily find when you need them. It has a little mitten hook / key holder too. Its not huge, but definitely big enough to be functional.

There is a large, easily accessible bladder pocket on the inside of the pack. If you need to carry several extra liters of water, it will definitely work. It may also function as a nice way to separate some items if you're not using a bladder.

[Ito Jakuchu]

Awesome. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.

What I think seems the biggest things I would want on the Dragon:
Big bladder pocket.
Back mesh pocket.

For me the fit/carry is most important because my back and shoulders somehow get very easily irritated when something is not just right.

You're right I think about the back padding probably not being needed if you pad it well with your clothes. I think this way it might actually carry better, with the pack more sucked to your back.

The side bottle pockets sound good too – is the Fastpack longer or does it come down lower than the Dragon then? Can't really imagine side pockets to work on the height it is on my torso.

[Wolf’s Rain]

"You're right I think about the back padding probably not being needed if you pad it well with your clothes. I think this way it might actually carry better, with the pack more sucked to your back."

The 'suck to your back' statement is exactly how I thought about describing it. I like that feeling and to me its a more comfortable / stable ride.

"The side bottle pockets sound good too – is the Fastpack longer or does it come down lower than the Dragon then? Can't really imagine side pockets to work on the height it is on my torso."

I just did a quick test with the same gear packed in each pack. Just from quick observation, I felt the Dragon actually rides a bit lower. The Fastpack looked to be a bit wider though.

Removing the water bottles on the Fastpack is a bit of a two-handed twisting maneuver. It may be more difficult without the finger loops on the kicker bottles. They help significantly and are what I use to remove / replace to bottle.

Different body types might cause the packs to ride higher / lower. Easily reaching the bottles might be another YMMV.

You're right in that fit / carry is probably ultimately the most important. At least for most people. I would probably be willing to take a small hit to that in exchange for increased livability / functionality in a pack. But, only a very, very, very, small hit for sure when it comes to high mileage hikes. I'm hoping the Fastpack falls into that category. The more I try it on, the more I think it might even surprise me in terms of comfort and carry. I expect it to carry differently than the Dragon, but that isn't inherently a bad thing. I'll know more by the end of the weekend.

[Wolf’s Rain]

I just tried out the UD body bottles. They are definitely very comfortable when in the Fastpack shoulder strap pouches. The size makes them a bit less functional for longer distances IMHO. They would also probably be pretty awkward to fill from natural sources depending on your water treatment method. I may bring them anyway along with a very small funnel I have. Maybe steripen water in the kicker bottles and pour it into the little body bottles. However, it might be more trouble than its worth and make more sense to bring a 1L or 2L platty.

The bite valve on them seems awesome. I definitely don't foresee any leak issues. I feel the Dragon bottles are a bit prone to leaking. I've forgotten to mention that about them. The push / pull valves don't seal very readily and you have to be mindful to push them down tight. Other wise they can leak when running or if you bend over with the pack on.

[Kevin Buggie]

Can any owners of these packs post a selfie so we can see how each pack fits on an actual body? Please!

Actual weights?

I'm leaning towards the fastpack, but my zpacks zero xs with a second sternum strap works for now, and is much lighter than either dragon or FP 20 published weights. I have thought about asking Joe if he has a mesh shoulder strap to retrofit or a chance of a packs fastpack in the design pipeline.

[Wolf’s Rain]

Hey Kevin. I plan on posting some picks and more detailed stats / review of the two packs. I probably won't be able to get to it till the beginning of the week as I'm getting ready to head to the mountains for the weekend.

[Ito Jakuchu]

I have a tight deadline to deal with but can do it straight afterwards. No benefit of the different packs that Wolf's Rain will have though.

[Ito Jakuchu]

"I would probably be willing to take a small hit to that in exchange for increased livability / functionality in a pack. But, only a very, very, very, small hit for sure when it comes to high mileage hikes."

Yes totally. We all have different fits and different needs of course, and different balances between those needs. Which is why it is so great there are a couple of packs out, and I hope there will be more.

[Wolf’s Rain]

-"I'm hoping the Fastpack falls into that category. The more I try it on, the more I think it might even surprise me in terms of comfort and carry. I expect it to carry differently than the Dragon, but that isn't inherently a bad thing. I'll know more by the end of the weekend."-

This statement pretty much sums up my experience so far with the Fastpack. It definitely carries differently than the Dragon, but I really liked it. Its also a much more livable pack with the side pockets and huge mesh back panel. The mesh pocket increases storage capacity significantly. It also lets you store stuff for easy access through out the day or wet articles, etc.

Barring further testing, I'm thinking the Fastpack is actually a more comfortable pack. It is also much more versatile. Where the Dragon probably excels is running. I need to load the Dragon up with the exact same kit I had in the Fastpack to compare carry under more equivalent conditions. I think the Dragon is / would be more stable while running. If this is the sole goal for the pack, then it may be the one to get. The Fastpack can be dialed down surprisingly tight, but its still a tad more bouncy and a slightly loser fit. Some of it will probably depend on personal preference as to the type of fit that works for the user.

I plan on making some images to better describe the fit of each pack. I also plan to discuss more about my experience this weekend with the Fastpack. At the moment though, I'm beat! It was a cold, wet, windy, and wild weekend in the mountains. It was sandwiched between some decent weather though so not all bad!

[Mike M]

Just got back from a two day- 35 mile-ish trip w/ the Dragon It carries wonderfully running, really surprising how well. Mine was loaded a little more than I would normally as they got a big dump of snow and the temps had really fallen (27F at 8:00 am at the trailhead at 5000′, not sure what it was two hours later at 9000′ but cold! :)), I also threw in my fishing pole which added an additional pound.

I really (really) like the water bottle carry setup, after a couple of times, I could access them (and reattach them) on the fly w/o any problem. The elastic pockets were easy to access, carried map, compass and Steripen in the zipped compartment, my camera and a few blocks in the larger elastic pocket, a few bars and a few more blocks in the other stretch pocket.

The trekking pole setup, while not intuitive, is wonderful- didn’t even know they were there when they weren’t being used. As mentioned the zipped pocket is tough to get to when you have stuff under the shock cord setup.

I experienced very little bounce- basically a very small amount of bounce when I was jumping over stuff. The load lifters (probably a misnomer?) help pull the pack in as did the straps at the bottom of the pack. The wide straps made the load almost feel like it wasn’t there.

I can find only a couple of small digs- wish it was 25 liters- make it easier to pack, put the zip down the side so you can access that pocket easier, put a small mitten hook in the front zip pocket to attach keys, a little larger stretch pocket on the left side.

This pack is a keeper :)

[Ito Jakuchu]

Sweet.
I'm super happy that the carry is so good on both of these packs and that the pole system works well. For my local mountains there are quite some areas where you need to scramble and I like not having to take off my pack to store my poles. My Osprey daypack has a similar system.

Rain's Wolf – How do the volumes compare of the two packs? I have the impression the Fastpack is a bit bigger but would be nice to hear some actual user impression.

I haven't had a chance to test the Dragon yet, but I hope to use it somewhere next week around the Mont Blanc before I return to Japan. It depends a bit on what we end up doing there (if I need to carry more equipment or not). I did load it up with some weight and like you say the vest is super comfortable with the wide straps.

For in Japan, running/racing I will pair it with a Salomon S-Lab Advanced Skin M Belt. This belt is big, but not bulky. Very comfortable and holds a lot of stuff. I can add 1L of water/fuel there, map, compass, windshirt, gels, myog maltodextrin packets, dried fruit, etc.

https://itsallaboutthevertical.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/salomon-s-lab-advanced-skin-m-belt-review-a-better-belt/

(photo below from above review)

I like having access on the go and the front bottles and other pockets in the harness of the Dragon should be enough. But for 50+Km with no or minimal aid I like that I can add more things that I need regularly, or that it is less hassle to put it back/get it out.

[Wolf’s Rain]

Ito, have you tried pairing your belt with the Dragon? Is there enough separation between the pack and belt that they don't bump into each other? I've debated using a belt at times and am curious how this set up works for you.

A preliminary answer to your volume question:

I feel that the Fastpack does indeed have more internal volume. It may only be a few liters, but it makes the Fastpack feel a bit easier to pack. It is definitely a wider pack when measured when compared to the Dragon. This is significant in terms of the way it carries. It really spreads the weight out over a large portion of your back which makes it quite relaxed and comfortable. It almost feels similar to the load transfer of a hip belt they way it eases some of the weight off your shoulders.

[Peter Bakwin]

Note that UD has a 30L version of the Fastpack coming in about January. Very similar design, but deeper (you can put a standard RidgeRest in there rolled up). This should also make the side pockets slightly easier to access as they will be a bit lower. Also, the shoulder strap pockets are different: one regular bottle pocket and one HUGE fully-zippered pocket. Plus a small zip pocket & a small sleeve for trash or gels. The 30 will come with a removable rigid back panel.

[Ito Jakuchu]

That is nice to hear. I prefer a smaller pack, would like some side compression ala ULA Ohm on the Dragon actually. But again, the more options are being brought to market the better. Might also be a good bigger companion to the Dragon.

Wolf's Rain, the Salomon belt works very well for me under the Dragon. I am 184cm with a 22" torso if that matters. It is easy to adjust where you let it ride, it will stay put well unless you overload it. I don't really like to add 500ml of water in the back though, very well doable, but somewhat bouncy. In the front no bounce at all. I tried to take some pictures but there is only a tiny mirror in the apt I am staying at this trip. Will have to wait till I get back to Japan.

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