three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack?

that clasp opens up the mesh panel against your back so you can stow a bladder, at first I thought I'd be able to stow my neoair folded up in there as a quasi-frame, but there isn't enough room

yes, the rolltop can be secured on top or down the sides (my Exped pack has the same feature)

Thanks again, makes sense.
I think I might try a Z-Lite sit pad in there.

Another option, from over at Gear forums
Ultimate Direction Fastpack 20
http://www.ultimatedirection.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=633&SEName=fastpack-20
I like the tall front stretch pocket, side compression, and the side bottle pockets.
From the Montane pack I like harness – the elastic belt and the 'load lifters' to help keep the pack closer to your back. From the looks of it of course. Also like the smaller volume for me personally.

Pretty extensive review:
http://www.irunfar.com/2014/08/ultimate-direction-fastpack-20-review.html

funny- the very day my Dragon arrived, I got an email from UD announcing their Fastpack 20 :) not sure I would have gone that way, but would have liked to have another option to look at- I also like the full mesh stretch front pocket (and the side pockets)

I don't know if in practicality the Montane is any different (we'll see), but what I really do not like about the UD is how this looks when actually loaded and carried..

agreed, doesn't look that great at the top- I think you'll find the Montane carries much closer to the body at the top

Those photos are user error; no need for the Fastpack to look like that.

good point, he may have packed it funky

SnakeSession on whiteblaze – IE loner2012at on youtube did an entire AT thru with a Terra Nova 20L budget hammock pack.

He recorded his entire hike – loner2012at on youtube.

I'll check that out- thanks

I'm loving that UD Fastpack, always a fan of handheld bottles and shoulder holsters. I'd love to see on packed a little bit better or get my hands on one to try it out. They're going in the right direction with these though.

I like your ambition Mike, you've got some good sounding stuff coming up. Looks like the once-upon-a-time "rookie" of some of us BPL runners is putting in some mileage. You'd certainly put me to shame right now!

I'll try to get some photos up soonish.

Not sure if snakesession hangs out here but he is on Whiteblaze. I watched every video and about the last 1/2 as he hiked. Around 125 videos in all. I never could figure out how he carried his water, so I PMd him on WB and he said he carried his water bottles in his cargo pants pockets to keep the weight off his back.

His terra nova laset elite pack lasted the entire AT thru.

His nano hammock died at about the 2/3 point and was replaced with a GT ultralight.

Video of his gear.

Just thought I'd share this review I found of the UD Fastpack here. Properly packed too it seems.

http://www.irunfar.com/2014/08/ultimate-direction-fastpack-20-review.html#idc-container

those pics look much better :)

thanks Craig!

I wish I noticed the UD pack before I picked up the Dragon, too. Options are always good even if it doesn't make a difference in the end choice. What I really wish is I could make a Frankenstein pack between the two. The Fastpack doesn't look like the vest would be quite as supportive as the Montane's. I like the wider velcro strap on the front of the Dragon as apposed to the two narrow sternum type straps. I also like the wider webbing that follows the rib cage under the arm. But, I really like the outside storage options on the back and side of the Fastpack. The Dragon has a decent mesh pocket on the back, but I don't really like the zippered top. The zipper has absolutely zero stretch and makes it a bit cumbersome getting items in and out if they are a bit large or if its tightly packed. A shock cord closure would probably be adequately secure and allow for maximizing the stretchy storage potential.

^ agree w/ your assessment, I still think the Dragon was the right choice for me- but combining features would be the very best

Agree about the merge would be sweet.
Of course the UD Fastpack can be properly packed too and would be nice to try out for sure.

But, I really like that with the Montane the bottom of the shoulder straps connect back to the middle of the pack, and the 'load lifters' to pull the top of the pack in. This helps keeping it even closer to your back. I like that you can stow your poles on the side too. But the UD has the side pockets for even more stowage, and a better back pocket I think (higher and no zipper). I don't care for the daisy chain because I don't strap stuff on the outside in such a pack, but they are nicely done it seems. With the Montane if I feel the need for side pockets for extra organisation on the trail I just add a minimal hydration belt – can put water or gear or gel bottles in there as well as a rolled up map.

To me the UD looks bigger though, with a bit more depth. So if you need the volume that would be good, and perhaps the first thing to consider. I don't, not for the intentions of this pack, and like the bit smaller main pack of the Montane.

Does the UD have that opening for a bladder between the 'harness' and the pack? Even if I don't use a bladder I like that as a pocket for a map, or small piece of foam to sit on etc.

Meghan (@ Irunfar) knows her stuff when it comes to running with a pack (she won MDS last year). She is very thin and has a very short torso for her height, so her sizing issues are not likely to be experienced by many others.

I used the Fastpack for a mighty two-day hut hike this past weekend, so while I was not carrying camping gear or dinner, I did have a six pack (cans) on board. Very impressed with the fit and comfort. Shoulder strap and side pockets are secure and very easy to use. Keeping a 16 oz bike bottle in the user-left strap pocket is super handy. It poured and sleeted on us for a few hours, and the pack didn't leak. Quite happy thus far.

Do people here find themselves packing race vests / packs the same way as Meghan Hicks does in the above review?

"A solid, comfy, all-day, multi-day fit for ultralight fastpacking packs, for a pack that has been sized to its user properly, is all about how well it’s loaded by that user. Unlike standard multi-day backpacks with an internal frame that’ll hold whatever you carry in whatever helter-skelter fashion you load it, you have to be really careful about how you load the Fastpack or any other ultralight pack. First, think about how to get the back panel to lay soft and flush against your back. Something soft should be there for extra padding and to help the pack ever so slightly contour to the curves of your back. This is critical if you want to run with this pack. If it’s not laying flush against and snug on your back, you won’t be able to comfortably run. Next, think about weight distribution. Get the heaviest stuff to the bottom of your pack to get it to ride low and close to your personal center of gravity. This is key, too, if you’re going to be running. If you have something heavy high up, it will encourage the pack to sway as you run. And it’s going to put unnecessary strain on your shoulders. Finally, save the light bulk for the top of the pack and for that outer mesh back panel."

For me I find I have almost no other way, because heavier, or weight dense objects (extra water bottle) will find their way down when running anyway. Unless your pack is packed super tight. Mine often is packed solid, but not super tight because there are times where I don't fully utilise all the space. When using the compression it is not so tight that water bottles stay nice and high if I want them to. It's fine like this though. I also sometimes use the pocket set up for a water bladder for a 900ml Evernew soft bottle (platypus type).

(In the race I have coming up, water will be scarce. I will need to drink 7L. Looking into setting up refill half way somewhere, if that works that means 3,5L for the first 28Km, and 3,5L for the second 28Km. Roughly 1L up front, so looking at 2,5L in the back. In this case I might have to bring my normal daypack – but still curious how others pack their vest/packs if any different).

With this small pack, nothing is too heavy-save water and that will be either in a bladder against my back or on my chest w/ the bottles

I like putting my quilt at the bottom as it's the bulkiest item, clothing that I might need at the top and everything else in between

you might consider a 1.5 liter bladder and your two bottles up front, that should give you a little more than 2.5 liters- this pack (Dragon) is going to carry much better than any daypack me thinks :)

I just caved and placed an order for the Fastpack. Prolite gear has it in stock and their current 25% off coupon applies. Its a labor day coupon so if anyone else is interested, it probably ends very soon.

I may not end up keeping it, but 25% off on a brand new model pack was hard to resist. If it carries as well as the Dragon 20, I think it might be the better pack for me due to the outside storage. The bottle pockets on the shoulder straps have the potential to be better than the Dragons since they could be used with a flask or 20oz bottle. I really like the bottle system on the Dragon, however I due worry about its durability since its only two shock cords. It also can be a bit frustrating when its dark or I'm tired (usually happens together). But, overall I liked them on my trip last weekend so I'm not faulting it completely.

I like the side storage pockets for the ability to carry extra water that is accessible on the move. I found that the two water bottles on the Dragon were cutting it close in capacity during longer ridge traverses / distance between sources, especially if one is being used for fuel. The only option on the Dragon would be to put it inside the pack (not desirable) or try to stuff it inside the mesh pocket. As I mentioned in my other post, the non-stretchy zipper top might make that impossible even if the pocket is technically big enough.

The Dragon does carry pretty awesome. The lifter straps on the top really cinch the pack in tight. The webbing on the underarm part of the shoulder straps combined with the multipoint attachment of the adjuster really make it snug. It seriously feels like its part of your body. I did experience vertical bounce when running but no side to side movement. The whole pack basically slid up and down. I'll have to experiment with loading methods as its always possible this was a factor. Weight may also have been a cause. I didn't weigh my load before I left (whoops) but I'd guess maybe 15 lbs, maybe a tad more or less. My load for a trip this coming weekend should be lighter as my kit will be more dialed and its only an overnighter. I was carrying fuel for 3 days last weekend even though it was cut short due to sever thunderstorm forecasts in the mountains. A lighter, better packed load may eliminate the bounce. I may have to take points away if I can't eliminate this movement. The pack was rock solid outside of running which was great for scrambling or water crossings, etc.

When looking at both packs, it really makes me wonder why designers didn't incorporate the details that would make the Frankenstein pack we talked about. "Load lifters" and shoulder straps connected to the pack with multipoint attached adjuster for the Fastpack seem like obvious details missed. Maybe I'll think otherwise when I try it, but I noticed a big difference on the Dragon when I tightened those straps down.

Just an added thought along the lines of these two packs, I wish more companies would put out larger capacity packs with vests and forward sitting hydration / fueling options. If there was a series of packs similar to the Dragon and Fastpack in 20, 30, 40, 55 liter capacities (with hip belts and increasing support obviously), I would buy nearly every single one of them and call it a day. I think SMD is on to the vacuum in the market with their Flight packs, but they may have missed the mark at first with no shoulder strap bottle carry system. I don't think the side pockets are easy access when moving either. I have both of them sitting right next to me though and I think I finally have some time to load them up and see how things look.

thanks for posting your impressions of the Dragon; will be interesting to hear how it compares to UD's offering :)

if you need more water, always an option to add a bladder- even a 1 liter platy w/ a hoser

my Labor Day trip was cut short due to severe storms as well :( I was packing a "big" pack though (trip w/ my wife), so can't contribute any details on the Dragon

I'm going with the strategy Mike suggested. I'll add a 1.5~2L bladder (or just a platypus type soft bottle in there). If I think that is not enough for during a race I'll add a belt with two bottles. I might even prefer this, but it's for a specific use that I will not encounter that regularly.

Thanks Wolf's Rain for your impression on the carry of the Dragon.. Regardless of which one will end up working best for you, the comparison of the different aspects of each pack will be interesting. Agree that carry will be most important. Side pockets would be nice, but carry trumps all. Packing, but also personal fit will affect this of course. Great that you can try it out for less, hope you find what you need in one of them at least.

In Japan their was just the Trans Japan Alps Race (TJAR). An epic race from the Japan Sea to the Pacific Ocean, crossing the width of Japan – through the North, Central and South Alps. Through a typhoon with torrential rains. With epic climbs (and hallucinations, falls, and lots and lots of running, truly one of the hardest races I have ever seen). These type of packs would be awesome there. Most people carried a Terra Nova Laser 20 or 25. There were some Japanese independent makers with light packs as well. But none with a race vest like harness.

I think there will be more packs like this coming out. With ultra running and trail running (or mountain running) becoming bigger and bigger.

Funny I keep forgetting about the bladder sleeve behind the harness on the Dragon. I didn't realize it was there on my last trip and apparently already forgot I read about it earlier in this thread. That is definitely an option. I'm curious now to see how that would effect the carry. It is a pack that is very sensitive to loading variations and you want soft things packed against your back. Depending on the size and ability of the bladder to mold to your back, I could see it going both ways in terms of comfort.