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Question: Your Energy Lifestyle and Backpacking

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Mark BPL Member
PostedJun 28, 2014 at 4:23 pm

"Mark, just because some green technologies aren't that green after all, doesn't change one bit about the fact that we should try to be more responsible as a species.

Getting people to care and raising awareness is the first to do.

I'm only attacking your attitude, I have no idea who you are."

But we are NOT responsible as a species.
Look at the amount of war, ethnic cleansing, corruption, greed and hate in the world as an example.

Rain forests being cut down so a farmer can grow enough crop to feed his family.
People on low income struggling to make ends meet that still continue to have kids.

We KNOW that heroin is bad for us, yet folks still take it.
We KNOW that excessive alcohol consumption will severely affect our morals, risk assessment yet millions still get drunk on a Friday night.
We KNOW speeding in certain areas at certain times of the day is dangerous yet millions do it daily.
Cigarettes – lung cancer, fast food – obesity, no exercise – heart disease, the list of examples goes on and on and on.

People are not responsible in general and they won't be for the foreseeable future.

People talk a good talk and there are some that walk the walk and have the courage enough to live by their convictions, but that in my experience is extremely rare these days.

I understand my opinion can seem a little strong, as the media has bombarded people with guilt and the "can do" attitude about how we are destroying the planet, it's been on everything from children shows and books through to Hollywood blockbusters, we've had it rammed down our throats for years, but what has come of it?
Governments continue to enforce various "environmental" taxes and have done for years, yet do absolutely nothing with it.

So even IF i buy into all this "save the world" stuff what can I do tomorrow that will any difference that i don't do already simply as what i see as good financial housekeeping?

Peter S BPL Member
PostedJun 28, 2014 at 4:34 pm

This is definitely going around in circles.

Let's all just give up…

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedJun 28, 2014 at 4:38 pm

"Governments continue to enforce various "environmental" taxes and have done for years, yet do absolutely nothing with it."

Cars keep getting better mileage, a lot because of the federal CAFE standards

Lots of wind mills wouldn't have been built without government encouragement

Houses and buildings and appliances are getting more efficient a lot because of government policies

I live in Los Angeles in 1970s. Air pollution was much worse than today, because of government intervention.

Government has successfully done some things. Should do more in the future.

PostedJun 28, 2014 at 5:53 pm

Peter, before anyone brings in population control, well, maybe we should look to just how "perfectly" China handles it. They have too many boys born, who will never marry, never have a child nor will they likely ever have sex, unless they pay for it. That leads to social instability – it is coming.
Forced abortions, on babies who would have lived (done even at 40 weeks).
There is nothing elegant about what China did and still does. Abortion to me is morally and ethically wrong.

If I was younger, I'd have had more kids. Alas, I am 41 and I stopped at 39 with 3. We need MORE smart people having kids. Children are a blessing. If anything, the "first world" countries are not having enough children to continue propping up socialistic programs/retirements.

Live the best you can, and if someone wants to have 15 kids and they can support them, great. I live in a large LDS area, where large families are the norm. If anything, larger families often live with a lot less than those with none or 1 child. Kids share rooms, clothing and 1 vehicle is the norm. They don't go on as many vacations and buy in bulk :-P They buy used a lot. They often only have one parent working. Tell me that isn't green? Instead of 2 cars leaving the house every day, only 1 does. Mom and the kids go walking, to local parks for fun. Often she home schools, so even less use of resources. Since there are so many kids, the do their own cooking, laundry, cleaning and whatnot – eating out is too expensive.

Sorry guys, I know I am not the same as many as you….I am a conservative voting enviro friendly happy breeder ;-)

PostedJun 28, 2014 at 6:17 pm

I don't have personal judgement towards you or anyone else here about the topic, like Peter, i just disagree with the extreme, overly passive view expressed. Again, i'm not talking as much about carbon footprint and global climate change, but more about long term pollution issues. I happen to think global climate change is probably two parts long term natural cycle to one part human influence. However, even if that is objectively true (i don't know if it is), again i am concerned about the pollution aspect.

It is frustrating to know, that as much as i try to do as an individual, that it doesn't compare to the effect that factories, and various other extreme pollution sources output, and little i can do about that since our society has come to view these as completely necessary.

If i seem on a high horse about this, it may be because i had some recent, somewhat frustrating experiences, which i did apply my big picture philosophy to, which helped when i started to get those twinges of anger, stress, and/or sadness.

I volunteered at the FireFly Festival recently, so for four days, for about 6 hours a day, i was picking up trash and recycling. What i saw and experienced was kind of upsetting in it's extremity. Seas of trash littered on the ground when there were containers with room right there, people throwing large amounts of recyclables into the trash containers and large amounts of trash into the recyclable containers. It seemed obvious that some people had no idea what the difference between the two was, or either didn't care. Occasionally people (mostly women!) thanked us for doing the work which was nice, but i really couldn't understand why so many people couldn't just responsibly and correctly put away this stuff.

Btw, i didn't volunteer for any noble purposes, volunteers got into the festival for 25 dollars vs 200 or whatever other folks were paying total (parking, camping, ticket). However, i didn't really want to go in general, but my wife convinced me despite my misgivings. I did really enjoy the Foo Fighters show, until it stopped, people left and the sea of trash on ground appeared…

So maybe to some extent, i'm proving your points, but i still believe that positive change can happen if enough people care enough.

Perhaps that's naive. I'm not too worried about it though, because for a long while (since about age 12), i've been getting a strong feeling that something big is going to happen to change things. I've been getting this feeling before i was even aware of or cared about any of this kind of stuff. I've come to trust these kinds of feelings, because they often prove accurate and helpful. Like, i've had experiences when i'm speeding (something i try not to do for various reasons), and have gotten a feeling to slow down or literally "cop" popped into my mind out of the blue, and sure enough a little while later, i see one. I've had other more dramatic experiences along these lines as well.

But, even though i do think some big change will happen in the near future that will totally reorient everyone and probably reduce population quite a bit, i still plan to do my part meanwhile, because i know it's important to live mostly in the present and do ones best now. And ultimately, while i think it's important to treat the Earth positively and with respect, i think it's even more important to treat people positively and with respect.

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedJun 28, 2014 at 6:52 pm

"maybe we should look to just how "perfectly" China handles it."

That doesn't work very well in China and would work even less well here. Absurd to even imagine the government would force abortions after 1 child. 1 child policy plus parents depending on male child for their welfare means everyone wants a male child so they have chaos. But there are so many people and so much pressure on limited resources that they've got to do something drastic.

In most "developed" countries like Norway, Denmark, Germany, Japan,… the population is stable. The birth rate is about the same as the death rate. U.S. is only slightly worse. Whatever we're doing is working. I think it's just educating women on the impact of having big families and on how they have control over their family planning decisions.

"if someone wants to have 15 kids and they can support them, great"

Nobody should have more than 2 or 3 kids. God created this amazing planet for us. It's squandering it destroy it by having too many people. If the population increases to some point, there just won't be enough resources to sustain everyone and all the other plants and animals that god created.

But if someone doesn't understand this and has more than 2 or 3 I won't be overly judgemental. You could adopt children and have as many as you wanted. There should only be tax credits for the first 2 or 3.

Peter S BPL Member
PostedJun 28, 2014 at 11:15 pm

Hi Sarah

In no way do I want anything remotely the same as they have it in China, just to make that clear, not that you were saying that ;-). China is a terrible country in many ways, but let's not go there for now…

As Jerry said, we must be doing something right, since our population is stable in size.

Abortion. I too find it disgusting when it's done way to late. I believe the abortion limit should be very low. In Denmark it's 12 weeks. In USA I would probably be against abortion too. Your limits are absurdly high! 24 weeks is it?

PostedJun 28, 2014 at 11:48 pm

"Runaway thread train, never going back, one way on a chaff bound track… how did so many people get so jaded, life's carbon footprint seems to be an issue so hated…

I can't go where anyone else in a jet goes, i know what no red neck knows,… here i am, just standing in acid rain, with a chaff labeled ticket for a runaway thread train…"

Mid point, random rap, "Guns, God, religion, abortion, and climate change farce, tread on me and i'll bust a cap in yo carbon disbelieving arse!"

Borrowed with artistic license and interpretation from Soul Alsylum's "Runaway Train" song.

(i've said it before, and i will say it again, if i don't laugh, i will cry).

kevperro . BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 9:34 am

I do turn off lights, buy energy efficient devices and drive a fuel efficient vehicle because it is cheaper to do so.

The key is that if you want right behavior you have to make fossil fuels expensive. tax them… and send the money to clean energy (wind, solar, hydro, nuclear).

Personally, I see very little possibility in the human race being able to make that executive decision. We evolved as pack-like animals, not ants with the appropriate communal structure to thrive in our current/future population density.

mfolch BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 10:17 am

Is move to a big, population-dense city, one that is so crowded and expensive that you end up giving up your cars, sharing almost all resources (including heating and cooling costs because of living in close proximity), walking or commuting to work,the grocery store, school, etc., and building up instead of out into undeveloped, inexpensive wilderness. The carbon footprint of the most conscientious, eco-minded, prius-driving suburbanite is still four times that of the average New Yorker. If we want to save the planet, we should probably consider giving up our soft suburban luxuries.

Kattt BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 10:48 am

And if you have kids, take planes to vacation etc, please stop pointing the finger on a possible single guy that drives a bigger truck…because he might not have kids/ pets and might not travel much and his total footprint could be a fraction of yours.

Mark BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 11:25 am

"The key is that if you want right behavior you have to make fossil fuels expensive. tax them… and send the money to clean energy (wind, solar, hydro, nuclear).

Personally, I see very little possibility in the human race being able to make that executive decision. We evolved as pack-like animals, not ants with the appropriate communal structure to thrive in our current/future population density."

Hi Kev,

Problem here is we are already being taxed to death on fuel, power, cars etc and that money is being squandered rather than invested into cheaper power or better infrastructure.

The ONLY forward steps that have been made is by companies that sell a product, be that a more economical car, more efficient water heater etc etc.

Wind and solar is not without it's pollution and hydro electric dams cause vast environmental and wildlife damage.

Nuclear is a good solution but again nobody wants it on their door step.

The other thing is, if i bought say 7 litre truck and drove it 100 miles a day 365 days a year for the rest of my life, it STILL wouldn't come close to the environmental harm that someone having say 5 kids has caused with their offspring.
Sure the kids will pay taxes when they grow up, but the amount of environmental damage 5 people will cause during their life is VAST.
Yet parents of 5+ kids aren't made accountable socially or morally for their kids damage to the earth.

This is why i refuse to care, because folks sit there preaching and saying i'm wrong not to care, but when you look into their lives you see that they really only say they care, in practice their lives are causing more damage to the environment than me.

PostedJun 29, 2014 at 1:35 pm

"This is why i refuse to care, because folks sit there preaching and saying i'm wrong not to care, but when you look into their lives you see that they really only say they care, in practice their lives are causing more damage to the environment than me."

You know, earlier you were talking about judging, making snap or uninformed assumptions, and all that… you are certainly making some big assumptions with the above.

Here are some ways in which i try to contribute, bearing in mind, i know i could do more.

I bought a used vehicle that gets 40 highway and 34 or so city–non electric, i tend to drive it slower than speed limits on highway, and faster than slow speeds on streets, as i've heard the ideal speed range is somewhere around 45 to 55 or so. Because my car is manual, going down larger hills i turn the car off and coast in neutral (been doing this for years w/out incident, so no need for lecture about safety), or otherwise tend to drive pretty consciously often coasting in 5th gear, slow acceleration, keeping steady etc, and only use the AC when it's sweltering. Oh, i do occasionally speed (when running late), but it's rare.

I like to walk, and bike, and occasionally bike to work. If we had better public transportation around here, i certainly would use it, but it really sucks and is near non existent.

I eat a mostly vegetarian diet, fairly regularly going through periods of eating vegan, especially during the warmer months. Very occasionally i do have a little wild caught alaskan salmon or sardines, but that probably amounts to less than 10 lbs a year worth total.

We don't have any children–maybe someday, after the collapse, but not anytime soon.

For awhile, we raised our own chickens, which foraged a lot in our backyard though we did give them some feed. Would love to keep doing it, but they kept getting killed somehow. Had a garden going for awhile, but this year has been lax because we just don't get enough sun in our yard and past seasons were disappointing because of that.

For a long time, i only used a human powered rotating blade mower, but because our yard is so shaded and so full of weeds, i finally broke down and got a gas mower (bought used), which if things get over grown, i use that as a go over, then maintain with the human powered one.

Almost all of the food i eat is either from a local farmer market, or organic from Whole Foods and Trader Joes, with some organic stuff from Costco. I tend to eat less than the average American male.

I'm fairly perpetually broke, so i'm not much of a consumer compared to the average American. I try to live simply in a lot of ways, with gear being my major luxury expenditure, but lately i've really been trying to move in the more durable and not just light weight direction. Don't know if it helps or not, but i've also been doing a lot of myog stuff lately.

I buy most of my clothes used, most often from local thift stores–sometimes used on ebay and from here. I make some others. .Occasionally buy online new if i can't get it any other ways.

Our house is small, well shaded, and living in VA don't experience a lot of extremes except some heat and humidity. However, because the house is relatively small, well shaded, and one level, i don't use the AC that much, usually enough to take out some of the humidity. Our last electric bill was 60 dollars and that's with 4 adults that live here, and only two of which (my wife and i) who really try to conserve. As far as conserving, i often turn off the water when showering for soap up, don't flush pee much, pee in a jar for the garden or compost (less this year though), try to keep the heat down as much as i can (course, wife and housemates don't like it, and inevitably have to compromise). Course recycling and all that, reusing bags and all the standard stuff of CFL bulbs, rechargable batteries, constantly re use steel water bottles and use my own filtered well water most often, etc.

We use a super efficient wood stove sometimes for heat, often buy sawdust bricks. Normally wood stoves are bad source of pollution, but this one does a secondary burn and if done well, burns pretty dang clean, especially we often use dry, compressed sawdust.

Dunno, there are various other things i try to do. I could definitely do more. My wife is a travel whore, so we do occasionally fly when we have the money to–she does so more often than i because being a teacher she has more time and money than myself to do those things. We fly on average a round trip per year. Very occasionally two. Personally, i would like to cut that down.

Now, all the above isn't going to amount to much as one person alone. But if 51% of Americans did similar, as much, or more, and we re-vamped factories and other major polluters, then i suspect we could lower pollution output in a significant way.

Heck, even a strong move towards a more vegetarian, vegan, hunter or raising own, would help to clean up our rivers and streams a lot more.

Again, i'm not too concerned. I know stuff is going to happen, stuff that will force people to change. Might be sooner than later..

kevperro . BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 1:42 pm

I have eight kids… only one biological so I guess I'm off the hook.

But… I know the right side of the political isle only says taxes are wasted but I don't really care about efficiency here. I only care that the market price changes behavior in the most effective way. Free markets are our most efficient mechanism to change behavior. The cost of carbon isn't currently wrapped up in it's market value. I know there is a political argument but hell… conservatives are perfectly happy to waste 40+ % of our federal spending on endless military spending which has all kinds of waste wrapped up in it's existence. Why not tax carbon to account for its societal cost?

Bob Gross BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 1:57 pm

Another idea. Why don't we sequester carbon, then use it to make carbon bombs to drop on our adversaries?

–B.G.–

Eric Osburn BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 2:14 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezVk1ahRF78

The video above doesn't take into account that in most developed countries the replacement rate is actually under 2.1 and in many developed countries it's in the 1.2-1.8 range.

If developing countries were taken out of the equation the world's population would decrease year after year. So the question is, what do we do to help developing nations develop while still safeguarding natural resources and limiting pollution?

BTW, the U.S. and other developed countries won't be able to consume indefinitely. Sooner or later the other shoe will drop as developing countries gain wealth. Look for China to start investing heavily into countries in Africa since that will be the last bastion of cheap labor left in the world. Once that happens you will see population growth stop and then in time the world's population will decrease. Eventually consumption will become expensive and consumption based choices will become a much more conscious process than it is now in most of the world.

I don't believe in the .gov increasing a tax on energy, especially since that money will be wasted by the idiots in charge on both sides of the isle. I do support higher fuel efficiency ratings being mandated by passenger vehicles and real world emissions standards being put into place.

I'd love to drive a 1L turbo-diesel with an aluminum body that netted 100mpg. Very possible with current technology, but it likely wouldn't pass current crash safety standards (or emissions requirements) which unfortunately have been one of the main reasons, along with Americans being so fat, that cars haven't increased in MPG over the past 30 years.

PostedJun 29, 2014 at 2:48 pm

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

This quote is from the long-ago comic strip POGO. Pogo, the wise swamp possum, was laying it out for us in the plainest of English.

If'n yer over 60 you likely remember Poge. It was the first truly politically satirical comic stip in the US. And it was filled with great comments on human nature that still resonate.

FULL DISCLOSURE:
I taught an Environmental Studies class to high school seniors for several decades.

Therefore my natural bias is to believe that Global Climate Change is at least 80% man made. 25 years ago the videos I was showing my classes said the Cray Supercomputers that climatologists used PREDICTED great swings in climate like big and prolonged droughts, floods, melting glaciers and many more storms that would also be much more intense.

With much smaller sample areas (20 sq. kilometers currently instead of 100 sq. kilometer sample data used in the 70s) and even faster supercomputers we now know for CERTAIN that this nastiness is almost entirely man-made.
>The tundra is melting and giving off HUGE amounts of methane, the worst of the "greenhouse gasses" that accelerates global warming.
>glaciers and ice sheets are melting at record rates and raising the sea levels
>the oceans are becoming warmer causing more intense and larger tropical storms
>the oceans are becoming more acidic and planktons, phyto and zooplankton, are in danger

So… we are the organisms in the giant Petri dish called Earth and, as with all uncontrolled Petri dish bacterial growth, we will reach a population peak and then it will crash, and HARD!
(And, IMHO, certain religions opposing birth control will also crash hard at this time.)

Jus' sayin'…

PostedJun 29, 2014 at 4:08 pm

"Runaway thread train, never going back, one way on a chaff bound track… how did so many people get so jaded, life's carbon footprint seems to be an issue so hated…

I can't go where anyone else in a jet goes, i know what no red neck knows,… here i am, just standing in acid rain, with a chaff labeled ticket for a runaway thread train…"

Very well done, Justin! And on the mark. I've been thinking CHAFF for a couple of pages now. Forum Monitor, wherefore art thou? Forum Monitor??

PostedJun 29, 2014 at 4:11 pm

In my mind, George Carlin said it best – The earth isn't going anywhere … we are.

So all this talk about saving the earth is really about saving ourselves (labeling it otherwise is really just typical human hubris). And to be honest, as I look around the world today, I'm not sure we're worth it.

When we can stop the needless violence – against women, against children, against those who don't believe the way we do, in the name of god, in the name of 'freedom,' etc. – then maybe we'll be worth saving. When we can stop the overwhelming ignorance that has led us to where we are today, then maybe we'll be worth saving.

I'm not holding my breath.

PostedJun 29, 2014 at 4:31 pm

"I'm not holding my breath."

Be of good cheer, brother. There is still time; to get to the mountains, that is.
As for the rest, +1.

Mark BPL Member
PostedJun 29, 2014 at 4:35 pm

"You know, earlier you were talking about judging, making snap or uninformed assumptions, and all that… you are certainly making some big assumptions with the above. "

Justin,

Sorry if i wasn't clear, my point was not made against you or anyone in particular.

It's just in general people judge and complain UNTIL the price of petrol goes up.

As i say there is absolutely no logical reason why i should care or feel guilty about my "carbon footprint" it's absolutely inconsequential within my life time, taken into the context of past and future generations it's literally less than a drop in the ocean.

I'll say again, i do take care not to leave lights on, i walk, cycle or public transport where i can but all this is 100% for the economical reasons and in the case of walking, cycling and public transport for my sanity (i live in Athens).

Saving the planet or thoughts of my carbon footprint have absolutely no part in my daily decision making process, they haven't up until now and it's unlikely they will in the future.

There are real, known threats to my family i try to prepare my family and myself for these as best we can, global warming just doesn't make that list.

PostedJun 29, 2014 at 5:41 pm

Thank you Tom. I was beginning to think that all my posts geared towards the comedic somehow became magically invisible to others and visible only to me after i posted.

Thanks to you, i've learned that only 99.9% of such posts become magically invisible, but there is some strange cosmic loop hole where .1% do sometimes, spontaneously, become visible to other people. What a strange reality we live in.

Has something to do with the mechanics of Quantum physics, or so i have been led to believe…

* Edit to add, It is possible that this anomalous occurrence is also accounted for by you having special/unusual perceptual abilities. That post, could still be invisible to most… (deeper down the rabbit hole we go)

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