GPS help

The Oregon is probably the way to go for hiking. The main advantages of the Montana are:

1) bigger screen

2) can be used as a highway GPS in car (with talking directions) or a motorcycle or boat

It's handy to have one unit do everything — get you to the trailhead in the car and then switch to hiking mode, but you can probably buy an Oregon and dedicated car GPS for less money.

The Oregon and the Montana appear to be functionally identical for hiking.

To me, the best feature is being able to plan everything in Basecamp — mark waypoints for the trrailhead, route to the trailhead, GPS track for the trails I plan to hike, looking at how long the hike took me the last time, etc. And, then just copy it to the handheld.

The Garmin 24k maps are horrible…. I found mountains labeled incorrectly and with the wrong elevations! And I'm not talking some obscure mountains; I'm talking 14rs in the Sierra.

And as stated above, the lack of effective shading makes them hard to read.

Just use your smart phone… you can get unlimited USGS topos downloaded for $10.00 (BackCountry Navigator app for Android phones)… total… the Garmin maps are about $100 for just 2 to 4 states…. and the 10.00 maps are much higher quality…

Billy

What am I missing? You keep talking about the "lack of shading". I posted a comparison of the very well shaded Garmin 24K topo map right above the USGS topo map for exactly the same trail on exactly the same mountain.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

As for inaccuracies, both the Garmin and the USGS topo maps have parts of the trail (and the parking lot/trailhead in the wrong place. C'est la vie. That's why I like to get my grubby little mitts on an actual GPS track for the trail. Fortunately, the AMC White Mountain Guide Online edition is awesome for downloading actual GPS tracks for every trail in the White Mountains.

I've used a few Garmin GPS over the years but I'm not familiar with their maps. Are the inaccuracies you're seeing a result of the trail annotated on the map incorrectly or are you using the wrong datum?

I know with Caltopo, you can choose between NAD27 and WGS84(NAD83). I'm assuming that Garmin's maps would default to WGS84 but you may want to check your settings to make sure.

Some trails get re-engineered over time, so if you get a fairly old map, it will seem to be way off from the current reality. Lots of electronic trail maps are simply copied from some previous electronic trail map, so the inaccuracies get carried along for a while. Last year I hiked a trail that was about 10% longer because the Forest Service decided to add in a bunch of switchbacks.

Once in a while, the wrong datum will get in there, and that makes for inaccuracies as well. However, when this occurs, the reality track log will appear to go parallel to the map trail with that datum offset. Yes, you want to check your settings.

In one particular GPS receiver of mine, the displayed map is always about 80-100 yards off from reality in a consistent direction. That is not a huge amount, but I just haven't yet figured out where the error is coming from. I have a USGS survey benchmark right around the corner from where I live, so I can generally check my receivers whenever I feel like it. However, any time that you live within a dozen miles of the San Andreas Fault, you have to expect that things are going to be moving over time.

As we have discussed here, there are also temporary inaccuracies that can crawl into your map display. Often they are based on a poor view of the sky (like deep in a canyon) or from multipath interference. Very few of us carry a choke ring antenna to the field. GPS blunders used to be a big deal about ten years ago, but they are rare now.

–B.G.–

These are significant errors in trail locations on the USGS topo maps. If you scan down a bit for the comparison I posted, the Garmin topo maps took the trail locations from the USGS map — they are identical. Both are wrong.

You can see on this segment of the Edmands Path. The dotted line on the map is where the Garmin and USGS maps say the trailhead and trail is located. The red GPS trace is from the definitive Appalachian Mountain Club Guide to the White Mountains — a set of four paper topo maps covering the White Mountains with GPS generated trails. They have an online version with the same maps.

YouTube interview with Larry Garland who did the first GPS mapping for the White Mountain Guide in the 1990s

The black line is my GPS track from hiking the trail last summer. It matches the AMC Guide GPS track.

The discrepancy in the location of the trailhead and first part of the trail in the Garmin/USGS maps (the first stream crossing and right hand turn) probably arises from the trailhead being relocated at some point in history, probably whenever the current parking lot was built. The discrepancy later in the trail is harder to figure. This trail was originally laid out by a famous trail builder in the late 1800s. Edmands was famous for easy grades over rough terrain. It’s unlikely that he would have routed the trail up the steeper terrain shown on the USGS/Garmin maps. Bradford Washington’s landmark map of the Presidentials has the location of the trail correct in this stretch.

These are very old trails, often mapped originally before accurate maps were available. I think in many cases, the USGS simply continued the trail locations from the historic maps. In other cases, the trails have simply been relocated to bypass areas of erosion, storm damage, or logging operations over the decades.

I’ve learned to never expect the trail locations on the USGS or Garmin maps to be completely accurate. They are accurate enough to get to major trail junctions, but the GPS generated maps are far preferable. I always download the AMC GPS track to my handheld before a hike. There is a free Garmin compatible map with GPS trails including all of the White Mountains here:

http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/53/

In the Larry Garland interview, he shows a closeup of an historic 1916 AMC map. This shows the location of the middle part of the trail used by the USGS and Garmin. So, they have simply kept repeating what was handed down from map to map, missing what was obviously a major trail relocation. You could probably go back through the 29 editions of the White Mountain Guide and find out when the relocation took place. It certainly would have been highlighted in the next edition of the Guide.

One of the trails I hike had a major relocation about three years ago. The most recent printed version of the AMC maps shows the old location, although they have now updated the online edition to reflect the new trail routing.

Yeah if humans are involved then human error will arise from time to time or at the very least, they'll take the easy way out and transcribe old data onto new maps.

I've encountered similar problems using MGRS maps where a navigational point is clearly marked on the north side of a east-west running road but found it on the south side of it.

My Geko died a couple months ago and I have a etrex vista (thanks Valerie) that I'm taking out on its shakedown run next weekend. I just plugged in 30 waypoints for a 30 miler to see how well it navigates. I'll upload a picture of my tracks vs the trail from Caltopo to see how far off they are from each other when I return.

it is what it is

USGS did the best they could a long time ago

Garmin and others have transcribed what was available. They didn't have a better source of data.

gpsfiledepot and switchback.com is another one that has updated trail locations with better ones from gps tracks.

switchbacks.com is about 95% accurate in my experience. Since the updated gps tracks came from humans there are a few errors – either they screwed up (they are done by volunteers) or the trails have been relocated since the track was taken. Much better than the USGS map though. The differences are small enough it doesn't matter that much.

I tried downloading gpsfiledepot – thanks – bad internet connection, I'll have to try later. I've been looking for a California map and this may be it.

I learned my lesson one of the first times out with the Montana. The 24K topo map showed the trail running along the north bank of a stream, so that's what I did, completely missing the spot where the real trail crossed the stream to the south bank. My side had a miserable old herd path, overgrown and a non-stop mudpit. I was never lost because I was following the stream, but it was apparent I was not on the real trail. I finally rock hopped across the stream and there was a nice, wide, well-blazed trail. That was the hike that made me decide to dig up and load an actual GPS track for each hike. The online edition of the White Mountain Guide makes that pretty easy. I just export the hike to Google Earth (KMZ file) and import the KMZ file into Garmin BaseCamp. And, of course, I have the GPS tracks from all of my own previous hikes.

Below I reproduce some of the reviews for the Garmin 24k topo maps that can be found at REI's web page.

To be clear, I own the Garmin eTrex30 and Garmin 24k topo CDs for the Southwest and the West and have found them useful, though poorly done and frustrating. The purpose of my posting the negatives of this hardware/software is not to argue with anyone here. The original poster wanted some help/advice and I only want to offer up that there may be better options than Garmin. There are no perfect solutions out there right now and a lot will depend on what use you intend. For many, I would recommend a smart phone with a micro SD card slot to hold maps and stand alone GPS ability (not connected to the internet). Samsung has some offering that might serve your purpose. With this set up you can have real high quality USGS mapping.

Here are some of the reviews that can be found at:
http://www.rei.com/product/776889/garmin-topo-us-24k-west-dvd-west-coast-and-nevada#reviewsTab

To be fair, there are some positive reviews. But I figure that is because some people just don't have very high expectations or had not really used the Garmin stuff in the field yet when they wrote the review. There can also be some variation in how the Garmin maps look depending on which device you use. Anyway here is a sampling of the cautionary reviews:

The dvd installed, but it does not have any useful manuals. There is some information in the help as to how to install it and the basic things. No info whatsoever as to the usage. I wanted to download N CA maps to my Oregon 450 since it had lots of storage space left but it does not tell how to select an area to download or what or give info to the usage. Garmin has no info online either. The maps look awful compared to my National Geographic TOPO maps. I will return them since they are of no use, as other people mentioned in their reviews.

I bought the software with high hopes. This product turned out like all other Garmin software products. The maps look like their drawn with crayons, the functions are ultra basic and the overall design looks like it was done by some guy in his garage. Come on Garmin, you make the best GPS's in the world…why can't you figure out software??? I returned the software and bought the National Geographic Topo for Washington. WOW…what a great product!! The maps are incredible and the program functionality is great! With this software you can only download the waypoints, tracks and routes but this is all you need to stay on course. A printed out map serves to show all topo and features. You should always carry a map anyway! So I use the map and refer to my GPS and BANG! i'm off bushwacking and heading out up the the mountain where there are no trails.Good job Nat.Geo. way to stay ahead of the pack!!

I bought this product for wilderness use so that's the focus of my review. I'm sure it's a great product for street navigation. After using Nat Geo Topo for several years, this product needs a lot of work. It's missing trails, doesn't show important features like powerlines, wilderness boudaries (even though the REI description says it does). My one dollar highway paper map shows all the wilderness areas, powerlines, and tons of detail that are missing from this product. The "shaded relief" display is very poor. For this much money, I was expecting very high quality. I disagree with Garmin's marketing plan to lock thier devices to only their mapping software. You always get a better product when there is competition. I would not recommend this product but it's the only thing that works on the 60csx(awesome product)so your stuck.

Loading took 45 minutes but worked well. After that the product is totally NOT user friendly. Very poor maps, no detail(like structures that are or were there) Before purchasing I read the reviews and thought it can't be that bad, It IS! I would get close to where I wanted to be and the program would hang. Next I will try CD's from [@] and if that fails I will go back to pure paper maps. I would not use this IF it were FREE!

Map quality is average. Sometimes it's hard to make out the countour lines, and tell exactly which countour lines are being pointed to by the elevations. The software has some shifty things going on with the programming. When you are trying to highlight the edges of the map, or make it bigger, the outline of the map flickers on and off. You can tell that the programmers didn't put a lot of thought into the software.

The biggest issue is the ability to toggle high or low detail, and large or small font. The categories that they have setup for the different types of labels makes it a huge guess and check adventure to find out which labels you don't want displayed and which ones you do. And each time you want to do this you have to clicke 5 different levels of windows.

All in all, some smart 18 year old could go into this software and make it way more user friendly.

The maps also don't differentiate between grass, rock, alpine and such. Everything is one color except rivers and water. So that makes things slightly difficult.

Topo Maps (free app) on my iPhone is better than the $100.00 Garmin maps. My app has the real USGA 24k topos, while Garmin uses a cheesy knock up that is poorer in every regard. Topo Maps is more legible, more accurate, and of course free.

Garmin had better step up to the plate and deliver on their software. Every day that goes by the smartphone and iPad products get better and better while Garmin relies on outdated maps (from 2009) and sticks with a stone age interface.

We know that stand alone GPS devices are dying the death of a thousand cuts, but Garmin is slicing its jugular by resting on its laurels while the real world passes it by.

Garmin doesn't have good customer service

Back cover of 60CSx broke. Bit of plastic broke off. I claim the design is defective – flimsy bit of plastic.

They said they'de sell me a new one for $35 or something. I thought they should just send me a new cover for free.

I just epoxied a piece of aluminum on and it's better than the original.

Not that big a deal. I should have just bought the new cover for $35. Would have been an opportunity for them to have a happy customer.

So a couple more details on Garmin Maps:

Middle Palisade peak in the Sierra is a much sought after 14er… Garmin label on 24k topo is 13,530 ! And the symbol for the summit is about 1/10 of a mile from the actual summit.

Mt. Muir, another 14er is labeled by Garmin: 13,983

Polemonium Peak… another Sierra 14er is labeled 13,957

The Glacier cross hatching is barely visible, same for meadows. No Tree line indicated because the entire map is green, unlike USGS topos where only treeline and below is green.
All these things might seem minor, but when you are out there… off trail on rugged terrain it is really important to be able to read a map that give you a better indication as to what you are going to encounter is you choose one route over another.

Okay, off my soap box. Let the OP and others choose what products they will.

billy

National Geographic has stopped selling their CD-ROM or downloadable electronic maps. You can buy the paper versions or you can plan routes on them with Pro subscription to their AllTrails.com website. And, of course, they have very limited coverage with those maps.

I have both a subscription to their website and the paper versions of their maps where I hike (White Mountains, Acadia). I find the maps to be terrific for planning hikes or checking out an area. I never carry them while hiking. They too cluttered with extraneous detail. I carry the AMC maps instead — much simpler, focused on the hiking trails.

A cluttered map on a handheld GPS is, in my experience, not very handy. I'm mostly interested in contour lines, a GPS track of the trail I'm hiking, a continuous GPS track of where I've been, and easy to see trail junctions.

If you can make a Smartphone work for you as a GPS (with adequate weather protection, battery life, and a display visible in sunlight), fantastic. By most accounts, battery life can be a struggle. With the batteries I have in my Garmin and backpack right now, I could go 70 hours of continuous GPS tracking. An additional set of three AA batteries is good for 22 hours more. My camera and my GPS use the same lithium ion battery packs. The GPS will also run on the same AA Sanyo Eneloops as my flashlight and headlamp.

Billy, there may be several factors here.

If you see a lot of peak elevations that are in error by a consistent amount, then often it is a metric/English conversion factor that got rounded off too much.

Also, at one point in time, Garmin has to take the electronic data and publish it, yet the mountains are changing their elevations all the time. Forty or fifty years ago, Mount Whitney was 14,491', and then it was officially changed to 14,494', then 14,495', then 14,497', and now it is 14,508'. However, of course, the old numbers are still stuck in the Garmin map.

As for the labels, that is always frustrating. Should they put the center of the label on the landmark, or should they put the lower right corner of the label on it? Or maybe the top center of the label? There can be an error in understanding whichever way they do it.

–B.G.–

An iPhone running the Gaia GPS ap works great. There are a number of threads on the topic so I won't beat it to death but bottom line, the battery is the limiting factor and it really can't track your movement for too long. If you only take it out of airplane mode just long enough to plug a grid coordinate or for a map check and immediately return it to airplane mode, there's no reason the battery won't last for 3-5 days.

Is Mt Whitney really rising or is it just the measurements are changing?

Of course, distance differences of a few 10s of feet are unimportant. Even a few 100s aren't that important, although sometimes this affects navigation, like if you want to go up a ridge to a certain elevation and then traverse off of it.

"National Geographic Topo"

I think that various other programs used the "Topo" name, so this one is actually "Topo!" The software was originally created by Wildflower Productions in San Francisco, and then National Geographic bought it. The original version of it that I had used the Wildflower name.

When a topo map looks crappy in a GPS receiver, it is often because of the condensed data sets in use. The more information that they try to display, the bigger the data set is, so the more memory is required, so the whole thing gets slower and uses more power. If they keep it condensed into a crappy map, it goes faster and uses less power.

–B.G.–

BTW, continuing the map comparison to the same hike I've posted below from the Garmin maps and the USGS topo maps, here's what it looks like on the customizable route mapping from National Geographic Trails Illustrated and the AMC White Mt. Guide:

National Geographic

AMC White Mountain Guide:

The National Geographic map is fine sitting at home planning a hike, but way too cluttered for reference when actually walking along a trail, even as a printed map. That much detail on a handheld GPS would render it useless as everything you want to see would be obliterated by labels. We are talking about fairly small screens on handheld GPS units or SmartPhones.

I carry the printed version of the AMC map. I actually carry two of them — the full color tyvek map of the area and a zoomed in downloaded version of just my route, printed on an 8.5 x 11 page, folded and put in the cargo pocket of my hiking pants.

AMC maps instead — much simpler, focused on the hiking trails."

there may be the difference in our focus.
I don't use a GPS for trails… don't see the sense in it nor need for it..
I use my GPS for cross country where there are not trails and being able to read the terrain on the map is critical…

I use GPS for off trail and want all the info I can get on the USGS maps.
For $10.00 you can download USGS topo maps from Backcountry Navigator for all the US and install on Android devices… forever… or as long as they are in business and view it on your cell phone.
Many people take their cell phones anyway. And the newer Samsungs are water resistant.
I take a non-waterproof camera and have never ruined it by water or dropping it… ofcourse, a GPS may be more critical if you did break it…
To be sure the positives of the Garmin devices are durability and water proof and battery life.
As I think I said in the beginning of all this, there is no one perfect solution.

"Is Mt Whitney really rising or is it just the measurements are changing?"

Both.

Mount Whitney is located on the edge of a fault block, the Southern Sierra Nevada. That block is constantly tipping back, so the edge is constantly rising.

Also, GPS survey measurements are getting more accurate.

I was up there less than two weeks ago, and it must be getting taller every year since it takes me longer to hike it each time.

–B.G.–

Bob… those are just excuses for the very poor Garmin maps… I don't really care why.. I just want better maps than the Garmin… The elevations I referred to were part of the text label… surely they could have corrected that to show 14ers as 14ers… the USGS maps and Nat Geo don't have that same problem/excuse…

billy

Bob:

The National Geo subscription site lets you view a number of different maps by selecting them from a drop down list:

Google street
Google terrain
Google satellite
TOPO!
National Geo Trails Illustrated

It's actually very handy for browsing an area on the computer:

Here's the TOPO! layer for the Edmands Path:

I'm pretty sure that these TOPO! maps are just digitized versions of the USGS maps.

As for elevation, I'm really enjoying setting the barometric altimeter in my GPS to match the contour line at the trailhead. Then, using barometric altimeter with auto GPS correction, I find that I'm usually within 20 feet or so of matching the elevation on the GPS to the contour lines. Recently, I've been setting audible alerts for every 100 feet of ascent, which gives me a little "reward" for making progress as I climb.

If the original poster is still reading, I would again remind that Delorme has GPS devices that use the National Geographic topos… at least some of the models… so I have been told, but have never tried them… another option to check out.

I might also suggest that whether you buy Garmin or Delorme, buy with a good return policy…. REI will allow you to return for 1 year… I think.. .better check that out before buying as their return policy has changed in the past year… not sure if the 1 year applied to electronic gear and software/maps or now… but it used to…

billy