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Trash bag + windshirt = WPB jacket?

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Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
PostedMay 29, 2014 at 8:18 pm

Reading Alan Dixon's article on hiking in prolonged rain, I was struck by a sentence after his discussion of the importance of DWR in WPB rainwear. Here's what he said about rainwear that has wetted out:

"At this point, your waterproof/breathable fabric breathes little better than a totally non-breathable material like a plastic bag."

That got me thinking. Until a rain jacket wets out, the DWR causes water to simply roll off the shell and the waterproof layer underneath doesn't need to do any work. Presumably, the DWR on a windshirt is (or could be, theoretically) no worse than the DWR on a hardshell or rain jacket. Up until the point of DWR failure, therefore, a rain jacket is essentially a less breathable windshirt.

After the point of DWR failure, per Dixon, a WPB jacket is essentially a trash bag—some would say a less waterproof trash bag (I'm thinking of Skurka's photo where he had to layer a trash bag over his rain jacket.

So why do we bother with WPB jackets at all? Pre-DWR-failure, it's worse than a windshirt. Post-DWR-failure, it's no better than plastic or silnylon. Why not bring a windshirt, use that in light rain, and then swap to a non-breathable shell (plastic or perhaps cuben or silnylon) when that wets out? The combined weight and price could easily be less than a WPB jacket

The main wrench that I can in this system is that a WPB jacket won't wet out all at once, but parts will remain breathable while other parts are trash-baggy. Perhaps a plastic cowl that covers just the neck and shoulders would provide my system with similar flexibility.

Thoughts?

Justin Baker BPL Member
PostedMay 29, 2014 at 10:47 pm

A good wpb jacket shouldn't wet out unless in extreme conditions.

"Presumably, the DWR on a windshirt is (or could be, theoretically) no worse than the DWR on a hardshell or rain jacket. "

No, that is totally wrong. The outer fabric on a rain jacket, without considering dwr or a waterproof breathable membrane, is way more weather resistant and less breathable than a windshirt. DWR + the fabric weave effect it's water resistance. I can't spray dwr on a cotton t-shirt and expect it to be as water resistant as a windshirt.

PostedMay 29, 2014 at 11:21 pm

What i don't understand is why they don't face WPB fabrics with the super hydrophobic fabrics like polypropylene or polyethylene (in the UHMW version especially) so there is less need for a DWR to begin with?

Next best thing seems to be EPIC treatments, wherein the fibers are encapsulated in silicone (as opposed to a more surface coating that is involved with making silnylon). EPIC DWR is suppose to be VERY durable. Why not combine a face fabric of EPIC encapsulated polyester fibers with one of the membrane techs? Neoshell with EPIC polyester face would be pretty sweet.

Why, why, why. I have a lot of questions!?

Honestly, i think if the brightest minds, most out there, and most experienced folks of BPL in a collective ran the corporations that made or sourced this stuff, there would be a lot of positive changes. The corporations however would go crazy, jump off high cliffs and become a . on the ground! (look to gear swap o' grasshoppers, and all will become clear, lol or maybe not)

(I've never previously understood Eric's obsession with a semi colon followed by an end parentheses but i'm beginning to get it now. BPL is obsessed with shapes).

PostedMay 29, 2014 at 11:33 pm

Justin, I think that depends on the windshirt. I seem to recall Richard Nisley posting a while back about a multi-dimensional measurement for windshirts, which showed that while many windshirts are highly breathable and minimally water resistant, others are less breathable and more water resistant.

At the very least, I'm absolutely sure that a jacket made from just the outer layer of a WPB shell would be significantly more breathable than the full set of layers. That's true even of eVent, and even more pronounced with inexpensive or lightweight models, which use PU based membranes.

PostedMay 30, 2014 at 8:18 pm

"At this point, your waterproof/breathable fabric breathes little better than a totally non-breathable material like a plastic bag."

The above statement is only true if every square inch of fabric has wetted out. That almost never happens. In reality some parts of the jacket may not wet out in a hard rain. The underside of your arms and arm pits rarely wet out because it is seldom exposed directly to the full force of the rain. So in reality a jacket that has wetted out will breath a bit better than a plastic bag although it will not breath as well as it did before it wetted out.

Another thing to keep in mind is that once the rain stops or lightens up the breathability of WPB fabric is quickly restored. Also if your rain jacket is in good shape the DWR may work for hours before it wets out.

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedMay 30, 2014 at 9:20 pm

Hi Justin

To answer a lot of your questions …

A fabric can be as water-repellant as you like in the lab and still break down *quickly* in the field. To understand why, consider that highly hydrophobic surface you mentioned. All very nice.

Now cover it with a bit of dirt, a bit of sweat, and a bit of body oils. Suddenly, the surface is hydrophilic, and the fabric will leak like a sieve. That's what happened to Goretex V1: body oils killed the Teflon surface.

So many really bright ideas fail in the field when they meet the enemy.

Cheers

PostedMay 30, 2014 at 9:41 pm

Hi Roger,

Oh, i knew that and appreciate the issue, but if we're talking face fabrics, we're talking easier cleaning, even potentially field cleaning (whereas cleaning a membrane can be a much more involved process). Which is what some people do with EPIC fabrics if on longer trips, or so my understanding was.

It still doesn't make sense to me to use a temporary DWR that is just going to wash off. I guess it works for the companies that make these DWR's.

All i'm saying, is why not combine the best of both worlds, a truly waterproof membrane like eVent or Neoshell, and a face fabric that you just need to clean to refresh the DWR rather than having to buy and apply more? Obviously if one used EPIC, instead of Polypropylene or Polyethylene, then it would have to be a lighter encapsulation coating like found in the pre 2013 Houdini's, so as not to decrease breathability too much.

And yes, i do know that polypropylene and polyethylene are not completely ideal, because (for one example) while they are quite innately hydrophobic, they are quite oleophillic and absorb oils easily. I don't know what they coat the eVent membranes with, but they could possibly use that same coating/process for these fibers. I don't know how silicone handles oils.

K C BPL Member
PostedMay 30, 2014 at 10:19 pm

Wetting out does not always happen, I have worn over 15 different WPB jackets, about 10 wetted out, they all were older jackets with perhaps little DWR coating. My best luck/experience was a MH typhoon jacket that withstood 4 days of torrential downpour in Denali that kept me bone dry. Two years later I wore an Arcteryx Alpha SL jacket that wetted out in AK and I got hypothermic in 3 days of rain… Dangerous! They were both made of gore paclite. I now add DWR before all serious adventures

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