Sawyer Extractor Snake Bite Kit – Still Relevant?

[Bob Gross]

Here is a photo that I got a few weeks ago in Northern California.

Even though this is a Western Diamondback Rattlesnake, it shows the green tinge like a Mojave Green. So, the green color is not a firm identifier.

–B.G.–

[Delmar O’Donnell]

Bob, is it possible that your Western Diamondback has molded? Or has he an algae infestation? A run-in with a So Cal graffiti artist from the Verde Gang? Is he an eco-terrorist wearing Violent Green?

[Bob Gross]

The snake did answer to the name "Kermit."

–B.G.–

[Valerie E]

>> If one doesn't engage in fall-prone rock climbing, or camp in slot canyons, and one >> DOES hike where there are lots of rattlers, then the averages are less comforting.

OMG – I rock climb, I camp in slot canyons whenever I get the chance (they're so stunning), and I hike where there are lots of rattlesnakes. Things do NOT look good for my longevity!

[Bob Gross]

If you are a typical hiker or backpacker, then the snake tends to bite you on the lower extremities, like on the lower leg. If you are a typical rock climber, then you are reaching up above your head onto some ledge where our reptile friend is waiting. Then you get bit on the hand or arm.

The location of the snakebite wound can change radically when large amounts of alcohol have been consumed.

–B.G.–

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> OMG – I rock climb, I camp in slot canyons whenever I get the chance (they're so stunning), and I hike where there are lots of rattlesnakes. Things do NOT look good for my longevity!

Yeah, but look on the bright side: You don't have to worry as much about snakebite. According to Don Morris, you'll easily die of falling or drowning first.

[TKB 1979]

Awfully tough to tell in the field, too. Some Diamondbacks will have a wider bands, less defined bands, more ambiguous "diamond" patterning, etc.

To your point, though, I'm more worried about disability (amputation) than dying. After all the stats come in, I *shouldn't* worry about much of anything rattlesnake related, but still working on it. It *would* help if they didn't look like pure evil ….

So did you decide on whether to carry the Sawyer?

[Valerie E]

>> If you are a typical hiker or backpacker, then the snake tends to bite you on the lower extremities, like on the lower leg. If you are a typical rock climber, then you are reaching up above your head onto some ledge where our reptile friend is waiting. Then you get bit on the hand or arm.

Except if you're my buddy Jim — He almost sat on a rattler one day on the trail. Gulp. Luckily, he stopped his downward motion, and the snake slithered off without so much as a rattle. Note to self – wear snake gaiters on tomorrow's hike!

Makes me pine for the ol' days, hiking in the Adirondacks, with nary a worry about venomous creatures…and plenty of warm clothing in my pack to combat the very real threat of cold weather.

[HkNewman]

Sometimes they do not rattle when startled … here's a recent article from Backpacker about someone being bitten day hiking in Los Angeles :

http://www.backpacker.com/out-alive-bitten-by-a-rattlesnake/survival/16703

How much venom and body weight are factors. Also some have neurotoxins.

[Tom D.]

"OMG – I rock climb, I camp in slot canyons whenever I get the chance (they're so stunning), and I hike where there are lots of rattlesnakes. Things do NOT look good for my longevity!"

Lol…….Valerie, I think you have a better chance than most people of living a long life. You seem to have a much easier going mindset and a more active lifestyle than probably 98% of the general public.

Its unlikely that you would encounter a snake while rock climbing except on the approach, where they are likely to be plentiful, but you probably already know this living in Arizona. And even then, unless you are reaching underneath rocks on the ground, talus, etc., you won't have any problems. They feel the vibations of us walking and tend to get out of the way. I've seen some 2 or 3 inch long wasps that make me far more nervous. Back in my rock climbing life, one flew between my face and the rock while bouldering.

Back to Delmar's orginal comment on the bees, the vast majority of those who die from bee stings are from anaphylaxis (severe allergic reaction). Also, more people may die from bee stings than snakes, but millions are stung by bees every year, whereas only thousands are bitten by snakes.

Then there's the Giant Asian Hornet…….

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> the vast majority of those who die from bee stings are from anaphylaxis (severe allergic reaction). Also, more people may die from bee stings than snakes…

Anybody know how effective the Sawyer is on bee stings? Or does the question require another session of reading the med lit?

> So did you decide on whether to carry the Sawyer?

No, I'm really torn. The "ultralite ethos" is struggling with the "first aid" impulse. Leaning slightly toward carry.

I read the instructions on the back of a new Sawyer Extractor today, and I thought the mfg was clear and up front (my paraphrase) about what the Extractor could and could not do: They said the extractor worked well for subcutaneous bites, such as ankles and wrists, where the poison would likely pool; but not well if the bite went deep into muscle, such as the calf, where the poison would be absorbed.

I think the pig testing, which showed limited extraction, was all into muscle.

The part I'm not "buying" yet is that the Sawyer can cause any significant damage. I strongly suspect that's just an M.D. overstating his case to make his point.

[TKB 1979]

You're worried about bees & not the Giant Asian Hornet??

[Delmar O’Donnell]

I've never seen a Giant Asian Hornet, so I guess I'm too dumb to fear one, at this point. Care to terrify me?

[TKB 1979]

Lol – never heard of it either. Honestly, not concerned about the bugs. (Are you allergic to bees, though?) Have lived with scorpions for years, been stung more times than I count, don't care anymore.

If it were me, I don't think I would bother with the Extractor, even given my unreasonable fear of rattlesnakes, which I will overcome by going out more. Actually, I'll go out tomorrow & post a report. But I'm *not* doing any snake bite field tests. :)

[Jeremy and Angela]

Here you go!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antbbx/6242572228/

[Anonymous]

"I've never seen a Giant Asian Hornet, so I guess I'm too dumb to fear one, at this point. Care to terrify me?"

http://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mandarinia2.jpg?w=449&h=404

Edited: I think you' be wise to go straight for the Epi Pen for this one, and not even bother with the extractor.

[Dan Yeruski]

I recommend the extractor and the gaiters.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> Actually, I'll go out tomorrow & post a report. But I'm *not* doing any snake bite field tests.

And ye shall be called: "Snakebait."

> Giant Asian Hornet…I think you' be wise to go straight for the Epi Pen for this one…

Indeed. And my BROWN pants. In case I actually see one.

[TKB 1979]

Fine …. :)

[Greg Mihalik]

The real problem is that they attach en mass,
by the hundreds or thousands,
and can sting multiple times.

Run for your life takes on significant meaning.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> Fine …. :)

LOL LOL LOL! But it fits!

[TKB 1979]

Ah, man … I though I could change my name for the post, but when I change it back it updates all the previous posts, too.

What I need is a dang camera to substantiate what I'm talking about in the Sups. I think the Sawyer execs should test their own gear & report back – lol.

[steven franchuk]

"As for the extractor, here's a brief lit review from the Annals of Emergency Medicine saying that extractors are worse than worthless."

The study was flawed in that it only evaluated the Extractor without using a blade to to cut across the fang marks. That is probably the least effective way to use it. When a vacuum is applied the pressure difference can cause the fang hole to seal shut. If that happens minimal to no fluid will be removed.

However if you make a cut across the fang hole, the vacuum is significantly less likely to to cause the hole to seal shut. The incision plus the extractor will therefore remove significantly more fluid.

The maximum amount of venom a rattle snake can inject is about 1 teaspoon (14 millileters) which is not a lot. If you can pull out twice that amount of fluid with 1 minute of the bite, there is a good chance you will pull out a significant amount of venom. Furthermore the venom is initially a fairly thick and will mote move far. However the longer you wait the thinner it gets and eventually it will be thin enough to quickly travel away from the bite.

So the key to surviving a serious snake bite if no help is available is to get out as much as possible as quickly as possible.

Another argument against cutting the bite is that it can cause a serious infection. Yes it can but you are equally likely to get an infection and venom from the snake. Some people claim the venom is sterile That is true when the venom is in the gland. However the fang it travels through is coated in bacteria. So there is no such thing as a steril snake bite. While a serious infection can kill it will take at a minimum a couple of days if your immune system is totally incapable of stopping it. In comparison venom can kill you in only a few hours.

"Bitten by a pit viper: 25% chance of a dry bite"

Often a snake bites a person to warn them to stay away and often little or no venom is injected. However smaller rattlesnakes blend in very well and can be hard to spot. My brother has almost stepped on two rattlesnakes. In both cases he didn't see them until it was almost too late. My guess is that if you do step on one the pain will encourage the snake to give you all the venom he has.

So in my opinion if you are over a day away from help the best course of action is to stop moving to slow the spread of the venom and to cut the bite and extract as much fluid as you can safely do as quickly as possible. In addition to that I now carry a personal locator beacon which will allow me to call for help when I am out of cell range. Keep in mind that it will take at least a day for rescue personnel to reach you.

Most of the snake bite first aid advise you see is based on the assumption you are only an hour or two away from a medical facility and comes from people that are not hikers. since it is assumed that you are so close to medical aid it is not worth it to try and extract the venom and risk a serious bacterial infection. However If you present a worst case hypothetical situation to a doctor you probably will get very different first aid advice.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

I understand the logic of your post. A couple comments though:

If you read the sampling of med lit that I posted, 4 strongly cautioned against cutting:

“…inappropriate treatment recommendations included: incision…”
“…In no case …incision … should be applied.”
“…incision … should be avoided.”
“…wound incisions are ineffective and can be harmful…”

And 2 gave a qualified maybe:

“…immediate linear incision and suction may be of value…”
“…Incision and suction should be limited to very special situations…”

Based on my read, if the anti-extractor studies are flawed (and virtually every study is flawed in some way, so that's not saying much), it's that they appear to have exclusively tested strikes on muscle tissue, where venom rapidly dissipates and is absorbed into the bloodstream. Whereas using an extractor on a hand, wrist, ankle, or foot, where you don't have the large muscle tissue to absorb the poisons readily, might be efficacious. In those cases, you'd be pulling out pooled poison from under the skin.

> However if you make a cut across the fang hole, the vacuum is significantly less likely to to cause the hole to seal shut.

The first part, yes, one of the articles discussed how the vacuum essentially closed the fang hole. But the second part–are you certain a cut is less likely to close–has this been tested? I can imagine vacuum sucking tissue in such a way as to close up a larger slice wound, too.

> If you can pull out twice that amount of fluid with 1 minute of the bite, there is a good chance you will pull out a significant amount of venom…

Except that some of the MDs who tested this say they pulled out a very small amount of venom. I recollect it being <5% but I'd have to go back and re-read. Again, my thinking is that if the venom goes into your calf muscle, it's staying there. But if it goes under the skin at your ankle, then significant venom may come out. That's just a hypothesis. I have no way of testing it.

[J Dos]

Timely thread for me. I've logged thousands of miles in snake country, and while I have seen plenty of them, including rattlers, I have never had a real close encounter with one. Until last weekend.

I logged ~40 miles in the Santa Lucia Mountains, including 2 summits of Mt Junipero Serra. My route included some bushwacking. While scrambling over a pile of rocks, I nearly stepped on an adult rattler out for some afternoon sun. My right foot was about to land on the snake before it, thankfully, slithered off to the scrub.

I predominantly hike solo. I am not an expert regarding this area, but it seems these particular trails see relatively few hikers (I encountered none at all). This was a weekend, and I could easily imagine that many of the trails out there get no hikers during the week.

I carry no electronics with me. No PLBs or iPhones. So I fall into the category of having to hike out solo to find help. Don't know how I'm going to keep my heart rate down with thousands of feet of elevation change common on many of these particular trails. This is definitely food for thought.

Thanks to all posters. I've got more reading to do.

[Author]

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