Perils of stealth camping, hiking, or even jogging in the US

Disclaimer: I didn't watch the video. I'm just providing my input based on the ongoing conversation.

I couldn't agree with you more Dena. Being from a small town in Canada I can't even fathom the idea of a cop pulling a gun on me. I've seen people get in physical confrontations with police and still no weapons were drawn. There would have to be a VERY good reason for an officer to pull a gun on me without me viewing it as a violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Specifically, my right to life, liberty and security of person.

The reality is that whether they realize it or not, cops are often dealing with very vulnerable populations, including those with mental health issues. Thankfully, the police in Whitehorse are s-l-o-w-l-y learning that an aggressive, do what we say and you won't get hurt attitude isn't an effective way of dealing with folks with autism, FASD, schizophrenia and other mental health problems. There are many fine officers in the Yukon, who, rather than harassing the homeless, 'serve' them as they would any other member of the population. That means taking them to shelters when it's cold outside, talking through situations with them, referring them to non-profits that can provide other services, and finding creative ways of dealing with the social ills that all societies face.

This 'gung-ho' aggressive policing culture needs change, and it needs to change all over North America. Mental health first aid training, conflict resolution, safe restraints and similar courses should be at the forefront of police training so that we people who are equipped to deal with vulnerable populations properly.

Cheers…

Travis, your points on police needing to be well trained to deal with mentally and emotionally disturbed persons are well taken. Having lived in Canada, I agree that police there are much slower to reach for weapons than in the USA. And FWIW, I have had a front row seat to the very calm and patient interaction of two Los Angeles County deputies negotiating with an emotionally disturbed individual for over two hours, until they finally peacefully took the man in for hospitalization – I had a front row seat because the man was my next door neighbor; and no, I was not the one who called the police – that was his parents. So not all LEOs south of the border are atavistic bullies, or unfamiliar with proper techniques for dealing with mentally disturbed individuals.

However, when thinking about the "violent" LEOs here, remember that the population south of the US/Canadian border are more heavily armed than folks north of the border, which means the LEOs are trained to act quickly to any use of arms. LEOs serve and protect, yes, but they are not required to put themselves are risk when a violent or argumentative civilian draws a weapon. In the incident under discussion in this thread, the LEOs were "negotiating" with the man for several hours, and did not use lethal force until he drew a weapon. I doubt even the RCMP would just stand there and let an uncooperative and violent person stab them without an armed response.

Population size definitely has a huge impact on how these situations are dealt with as well. Police that work in a place like downtown Vancouver are likely going to react quite differently in a situation than an officer in a place like the Yukon, where the entire population of the territory is about 40,000.

Stephen, I do agree that the police have a damn tough job. But with that job comes a higher level of accountability and responsibility as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers…

"…with that job comes a higher level of accountability and responsibility…"

Absolutely! And they are – at least in all the jurisdictions I'm familiar with. What is often hard for civilians to comprehend are exactly what forms the accountability and responsibility take legally. And media reports are seldom accurate or comprehensive n that regard. Most civilians here in the USA, for instance, realize that the police are NOT responsible to actively protect civilians. While every cop wants to, sometime it's not possible, or they may be legally prohibited (through, say, lack of evidence of immediate jeopardy).

The case this thread started on gives another illustration: regardless of sanity, emotional travail or any other circumstance, if a civilian brandishes a weapon and moves toward police, the police will treat it as an immediate lethal threat, even if the person with the knife is a 90 year old woman (real case). If they don't, they will face internal discipline for failure to follow proper procedure in a potentially lethal confrontation.

One department here in SoCal is so concerned about law suits over tazers, that an LEO who uses this non-lethal device will have nearly twice the paper work to fill out than if he shot and killed the person with his duty weapon. Crazy, right? But that's the legal situation here.

In the department I am most familiar with, new LEO hires are given an initial 6 months intensive training – more than half don't make it through. After that every new assignment has a probationary period with further training – again, some are weeded out. Finally, the department offers several different training seminars every month on a variety of subjects – some voluntary, some required. Subjects range from drug recognition to peer counselling to terrorist activity and suppression to dealing with civilians who are acting abnormally due to mental or emotional problems, or being high on different drugs. The amount of training frankly amazes me – but there are still officers who in one situation or another mess up, or don't take advantage of available support, or violate procedure. And there are always civilians who think police have overstepped the bounds when in fact they have done precisely what they are supposed to do.

I know something of what these people go through, in training and on a day-to-day basis. For the most part, I am amazed at how professional they are in the face of daily abuse from the public. But they are human, and a few of them are indeed jerks, and even a good cop can be a jerk on a given day.

But when you see a cop doing something you think is reprehensible, it is nearly always the "fault" of policies put in place by the department or jurisdiction that define what the cop is to do in a particular situation. Don't blame the cop – instead go to the chief of police to find out what the policy is, and how you can get it changed. The best place for that is a seat on whatever civilian board oversees the law enforcement agency in your jurisdiction. Don't just complain – complain effectively!

http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

Edit: I guess it's a matter of semantics but stealth camping doesn't imply illegal camping in my mind.

http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

From above:
"Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided – perhaps fatal – disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified."

"And remember: No single 'rule' can arbitrarily be used to determine when a particular level of force is lawful. The 21-Foot Rule has value as a rough guideline, illustrating the reactionary curve, but it is by no means an absolute."

I enjoy (legal) stealth camping!

That video makes me sick; I regret watching it.

For 14 years I've taught a class with moderate to severe students in special education. I've worked with quite a variety of teenagers with different needs over the years…schizophrenia, the full spectrum of autism related issues, the severely emotionally disturbed (including aggressive/violent outbursts), and students that are generally so low functioning that they are hardly aware of their actions or their consequences.

When one of these kids is having a bad day, the worst possible response would be to have a stranger start giving them orders. Let alone a group of armed, aggressive ones. (And I'm not slighting the cops here, I understand the need to be aggressive and the reasons they speak and act the way they do). I've calmed down quite a few tense and violent outbursts in my time that I'm afraid, if the police were involved, would've ended in someone getting seriously hurt or killed.

It's a recipe for disaster; throwing gasoline on a fire. It's precisely how someone initially suspect of the minor and nonviolent infraction of "illegal camping" (AKA homelessness) ends up shot multiple times, bean bagged, bit by a dog, cuffed, and dead. It happens quite a bit in our society if you're paying attention or know where to look.

This whole thing is nothing but an indicator of the absolute failure (or non-existence) of social welfare systems and how the police end up picking up the slack in far too many cases. People end up out on the streets with absolutely no help or support, left to have an outburst or commit a crime before they receive "help", which usually involves handcuffs, not doctors. I'd wager this guy needed support, a social worker, and a doctor far more than men in body armor with AR15s and an eviction notice.

Now plenty of people will write off incidents like this to the idea that we can't help everybody, question where his family was, state that it's all about personal responsibility, say that this guy had it coming, and argue that many of these people "don't want help". Yet those things are real easy to say when you're not the parent, family member, caregiver, or simple advocate for a person, regardless of age, that has little control over their behavior. Imagine the horror of seeing armed and armored men show up in response to an irrational outburst by someone you know and care about, knowing full well that they have no idea who the person is, what sets them off, or how to handle them. This happens all too often with the mentally ill in this country. Once ties are broken with family and any formal institutions, which too often is at age 18, are mentally ill people seriously expected to self report? I've also noticed throughout the years that people will go to great lengths to help minors with mental issues, but tragically, have little sympathy for adults with the same issues. Though your condition hasn't changed (or has even possibly worsened), funding and support mysteriously dry up pretty quickly once you're an adult.

When I see disheveled and lost people roaming our streets, I'm tragically aware that I'm looking at the future of a percentage of the students I teach and love. I've already seen it happen. And I cringe when I think that their only interaction with our society's institutions at that point will likely be one between them and a police officer…and likely one with their hand on a weapon (and I don't blame police for worrying about their own safety when dealing with unstable people).

Our society is putting both the mentally ill and the police in impossible and unreasonable situations where a positive outcome is often doomed from the start. Though it only took a second to shoot him to death, I suspect the incident in that video was years in the making.

“Our society is putting both the mentally ill and the police in impossible and unreasonable situations where a positive outcome is often doomed from the start.”

Yup. It’s been a while since I’ve watched it but this is a good series.

Craig W, you have my utmost respect.

+1, Craig. Well said!

I'll add this to my comments near the start of this thread; in the 2 hours I interacted with James Boyd last summer, he never asked me for money. Only if he could share my newspaper, and then offered me a bottle of water on a 90 degree day.

I'm not trying to misrepresent myself as a full-time special education teacher; they have my utmost respect.
I'm a high school ceramics teacher, though I considered going in for special education and started a credential for it.. Because of this, I've had quite a few classes in special ed. and art therapy. I developed a relationship with my school's special ed. program to have one class per day in which students in special day class (severe disabilities) attend for art. It's not without its challenges, but frankly, I get to see them at their best and have quite a bit of fun with them. I get the easy side of it.

All I know is that I would like to see help for people prioritized. I don't believe for one second that we're lacking in money or creativity…we're lacking something far more important: will.

…

"I don't know how to fix it."

To start, overturn Citizen's United, don't allow people or corporations to make huge political contributions.

The only time I had interaction with the mental health "institutions" I was appalled at how little was done for people with or suspected of mental illness. No one else would put up with that kind of medical care.

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Very well said.

That recently released study of fetus autopsies said it has to do with brain development. They said it could be genetic, environment, or combination.

Lots of other studies that are inconclusive whether it's genetic, environment, or combination.

Part of the increase in Autism spectrum numbers is that people are more aware of it. Before there were more undiagnosed. A portion of "the spectrum" are perfectly able to live productive independent lives.

Good that there's more awareness so people can be treated early.

With the cuts to public education spending over the last few decades, it's difficult to treat people effectively. I don't think many people say that people with Autism are just lazy and spending money treating them is encouraging them to be dependent on the state, lets just cut this social spending.

What have we become?

"we're lacking something far more important: will."

I think it goes far deeper than that, Craig. We're (generalization of our current society, or certainly parts of it, often around cities) lacking empathy, compassion, patience and understanding. We're lacking community. We're lacking basic courtesy. We'll never have the will as long as lack these. Look at all the media around us, listen to our 'thought leaders' and politicians. We're all about division, exclusion and dislike, and it's sad.

That was murder, plain and simple.

Since when do you use lethal force fist, then the bean bag rounds?
They could easily have taserd him or dropped him with a single bean bag round at any time.

At no time were the murderers ( I'll not call those bastards police ) in any danger.

If a citizen had done such a thing there would be no question that it was murder.
What a horrifying film. Killed a guy for a minor misdemeanour. Of course he was really killed for "contempt of cop".

I know this is off topic but on average spending per student in the U.S. has increased year after year with 2000-2010 spending more than 1990-2000 and 1990-2000 spending more than 1980-1990 and so forth. I work in public education and the myth that we don't spend enough is just that, a myth. You could make the argument that teachers aren't paid enough, and in some areas of the nation you would be correct but most districts pay teachers fairly. The biggest problem is too much overhead from administration.

The idea that Reagan closed mental health facilities is also revisionist history btw. ;) Look into it the topic further and the truth is easy to see. He no more closed mental health facilities than Obama destroyed the economy in 08'.

Back to the topic at hand, I too am alarmed and the militaristic direction in which police departments are headed in this nation. I work with officers on a regular basis and find them for the most part to be very good people who are not part of the problem. They have a difficult job, one that I would not want to perform. Even these officers recognize that there is a small subset that are the problem and who give the rest of them bad names, we're talking 5-15% depending upon the department. Unfortunately those police are the ones who shoot first, ask questions later and who escalate the intensity of situations instead of diffusing them.

The real problem we have is a police force that instead of policing their own protect their own and more often than not obstruct justice. If bad cops lost their jobs and were prosecuted for their crimes the general public's mindset towards police would be much more favorable than it currently is. Again, when police are involved in a situation, be courteous, calm, and follow orders (assuming no unconstitutional or blatantly wrong orders are given), let cool heads prevail because chances are the officer is just trying to do their job.

Doug hit the nail on the head with: "I think it goes far deeper than that, Craig. We're (generalization of our current society, or certainly parts of it, often around cities) lacking empathy, compassion, patience and understanding. We're lacking community. We're lacking basic courtesy. We'll never have the will as long as lack these. Look at all the media around us, listen to our 'thought leaders' and politicians. We're all about division, exclusion and dislike, and it's sad."

The bad cops don't see us as human, have no compassion and have no love for their fellow man. They see themselves and judge, jury and executioner. Disobey one of their almighty orders and pay with severe bodily harm and in some cases your life. They hide behind the law and behind their union protection and abuse the power with which they have been entrusted. Punish the bad cops, weed them out of the departments and restore public faith in LEOs.

As was mentioned, the divisive talk that comes out of D.C. and the media categorizes and segregates us instead of people seeing each other as first and foremost human beings and secondly, citizens of the greatest nation the world has known. We need respect and compassion for one another and to value the sanctity of life.

I got to call myself a veteran after two weeks in my job but I was in Afghanistan. Police are taxpayers and contribute to those settlements and believe it or not, their salaries too via the taxes that they pay. I know a lot of LEO's and I wouldn't say anyone of them are insecure or megalomaniacs. The ones I know have all left the service and decided to continue their service in another fashion. I believe that when most LEO's use their weapon they are justified. When I have to use deadly force in my line of work, I only need to have a reasonable doubt that the person is going to put my life or another Soldier's life in danger. LEO's have the same rules (roughly anyways, their's are more restrictive but similar). If I was in Afghanistan and someone was spouting off to me about how they were "going to kill me" and then had a knife…well, that would be the end of that story. If I was in the states and ran into the same situation the story would probably end in a similar fashion (I exercise my 2nd Amendment rights). I don't blame the LEO and I definitely don't think they are a "killer".

"I know this is off topic but on average spending per student in the U.S. has increased year after year with 2000-2010 spending more than 1990-2000 and 1990-2000 spending more than 1980-1990 and so forth. I work in public education and the myth that we don't spend enough is just that, a myth. You could make the argument that teachers aren't paid enough, and in some areas of the nation you would be correct but most districts pay teachers fairly. The biggest problem is too much overhead from administration."

It would be interesting to see data for that. Or a source. Is it more than inflation? Or more than what similarly educated professional people?

Two problems are rising cost of health care, and they used to under fund pensions which are now coming due.

Even if teacher compensation for K-12 and higher education is the same, there's a problem.

In Oregon (and Washington and California I think) they passed property tax reductions. School used to be paid for primarily by property tax.

Now it's primarily paid for by income tax. They took some money away from income tax for higher education. But not enough to make up for the property tax so K-12 is squeezed. And higher education is squeezed because of what was taken for K-12.

It's a sad topic, but I wanted to add that for almost a decade I've worked in an emergency room, where we see this demographic on a daily basis, and the local police (Mount Vernon PD) do an amazing job de-escalating situations like this. I've seen MVPD invest hours, literally, in talking it out with mentally ill folks who are having a bad day. Most of the time these people act aggressively, scream, posture, and throw things, and these officers are almost always successful in resolving it without laying hands on anyone. Yay for awesome cops!

"Most of the time these people act aggressively, scream, posture, and throw things, and these officers are almost always successful in resolving it without laying hands on anyone. Yay for awesome cops!"

The post I've been hoping for. It CAN be done. Thanks for bringing it into the discussion, Ozzie.