Perils of stealth camping, hiking, or even jogging in the US

One of the problems with the euphemistic term, "Stealth Camping", is that it masks the illegal nature of this illegal camping.

When you make the choice to camp illegally you should understand that there are risks… some of which are presented by HK.

Billy

Small world, BPL.

I met the guy killed by APD in the video above last summer at the end of a 7 day packrafting trip. It's sobering and sad to watch that video.

I was waiting hours for the southbound Railrunner train in Bernalillo, just north of Albuquerque. The depot was mostly deserted as it was the middle of the day, and James approached me and offered an unopened bottle of water, in exchange for reading the newspaper I had just finished. He wasn't that clean cut (ex-military hippy-ish I thought at the time), but his clothing and backpack were immaculately clean despite obvious use. Quite the contrast from my muddied HMG pack, and houdini jacket and pants I had been wearing for a week. The topic of our discussions led me to think he was a little off, but thanks to he and the other people I met that day taking public transportation home from a great trip, it could have easily been the best day of that trip. Now its quite the post-script.

Trip report here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=85887&skip_to_post=732138#732138

I can't agree with how he interacted with the cops in that video, but man, it's a dangerous world to be doing things outside of the norm these days (just last weekend I was spotlighted in the middle of the night while 'stealth' camping at the river put-in at Montezuma Creek, Ut. Both my hands went up, as I wiggled out of the quilt…)

Always another side to the story:
"During Friday’s press conference, Chief Eden released video of the moment when officers first contacted Boyd. When one officer went to frisk Boyd, the homeless camper could then be heard refusing to comply, saying he was a government agent. The video shows Boyd continued to refuse officer commands and began threatening their lives.

“I’m almost going to kill you right now. Don’t give me another directive. Don’t attempt to give me, the Department of Defense, another directive,” said Boyd at the beginning of the incident.

As the hours passed, Chief Eden said an APD Crisis Intervention Team officer and a State Police liaison were called to the scene. Both attempted to speak with Boyd, however, Chief Eden says Boyd continued to threaten officers with death. Police also discovered that Boyd had a violent 20-year criminal history that included multiple incidents of violence against officers. Boyd’s history also showed years of mental health related concerns.

Video shows when officers moved in on Boyd around 7:30 p.m on the night of the shooting. At the beginning of incident, Boyd can be heard saying, “In a private world, if you were down at a bar or a bus stop, I would have the right to kill you right now because you’re trying to take me over. Don’t get stupid with me!”

http://krqe.com/2014/03/21/apd-officer-involved-shooting-was-justified/

I realize its easy to play arm-chair quarterback from the comfort of my home, but wouldnt a taser have stopped that whole ordeal about 2:58hrs before he was shot? Did they only have AR-15s and flash bang grenades?

Ryan

Justin:

Ah, I thought the officer told Boyd that if down at a bar .. he would have the right to kill him via the video. Did I just wake up to decaf? Still, an extreme example, but then again, I've had a police pistol pointed at me back in '91 in broad daylight while jogging in the desert (nowadays, I guess that would be trail running) back to the city limits – all while minding my own business.

Now Boyd had mental issues, but my concern is some more volatile campers caught stealth camping may attempt to challenge law enforcement to make, let's say, a political point or do anything avoid a hotel room stay. Also more to the point, stealth camping near urban areas or transportation corridors (supposedly enroute) may be reported to the authorities as "suspicious behavior" and it's probably best not to argue with police in the darkness, make any strange moves, etc.. .

Ryan:
That's my thought is the argument went on for hours so the officers knew he wasn't on angel dust or meth. Too risky for a big butterfly net, … though a taser (or 2) would have been appropriate here I think. I didn't see a social worker with a $5 box of Colonel Sander's original recipe fried chicken either that may have diffused the situation without violence (maybe break some "relaxing" meds into the iced tea) – as it is the city may be sued by the relatives, patrolmen replaced by rookies until cleared, etc.. Add I do not certainly blame the police for bringing in what seems to be some sort of SWAT (that sight on the carbine and the railing system on the helmet give it away, btw), but when it was clear they were dealing with a delusional person, a negotiator should have been brought in with goodies.

Even have "fish and gam"e tranquilize the dood like a mountain lion caught in city limits. If an agile mountain lion can be shot with a tranquilizing dart, an overweight American shouldn't be that much more of a challenge (double the dosage though).

I stopped to pee at the Sandy River off I-84. Walked down closed road 100 feet.

Police came along and asked what I was doing there. Asked if I had a car.

They were looking for homeless people camping out.

I told them I stopped to pee. I put my hand in my pocket and beeped my car unlocked to show them I had a car.

They told me to keep my hands out of my pockets.

Eventually they decided I was harmless and got a bit friendlier.

I guess I have to find a new place to pee.

About 5 yrs ago, I was on a section of the Arizona Trail perhaps 50 miles or so from the Mexico border.

At oh-dark-early, I hear what sounded in my groggy state like a herd of elephants coming through. A radio crackle. And "Never mind, they are just campers".

I should say that I was sleeping under stars. Another friend was sleeping under the stars as well. Our other hiking partner? He had a tent up.

If the border patrol had just seen me under stars with no tent in sight, I imagine the early morning wake up would have been from the wrong end of an M-4. :O

So it ain't just "stealth camping" where you have to worry.

As an side, "stealth camping" does not always mean illegal. Out west it has that connotation. Back east, with its ample shelters and designated camps, it often means camping in a non-designated, usually legal, area.

Any time law enforcement officers tell you to do something, especially if their weapons are out, do it. Argue about your rights once your lawyer is there – and let him/her do the arguing. Until then, just comply. Anything else is foolish, dangerous, and usually illegal.

If this confrontation lasted several hours per the report, I think the LEOs were remarkably restrained and patient.

Boyd, with his psychiatric and social problems, was his own worst enemy, from where I sit. The police were within their rights to protect themselves from his aggression, his refusal to comply, and his drawing a weapon.

Tazers are iffy weapons in that they can trigger heart attacks and other fatal trauma. Most police departments have strong restrictions on their use, even when allowed. Gel-type pepper spray can be effective, but needs to be carefully aimed at a fairly close range. Harder to use than a bean bag gun. Spray-type pepper spray can take out both the sprayer and the target – not good.

This latest incident in Albuquerque is the next in a long-line of fatal APD shootings (to the extent that APD is in the midst of a long FBI investigation regarding civil-rights violations), many of which involving mentally unstable people. Concurrently and more related to the thread, the Albuquerque-area police/sheriff departments are cracking down on illegal camping within the metro area (mostly along in the bosque-riverside forest along the Rio Grande). Culminating in this unfortunate encounter.

This affects me in several ways as a BPL adventurer type. I'd like the option of free camping options at the start or finish of a trip as most public transit in NM goes through Albuquerque. The Rio Grande is also one of our only perennially flowing rivers (think packraft trips) and the bosque is a fantastically beautiful place to camp (just dont burn it down).

So, I'm torn between thoughts:

Should I be thankful that when/if I choose to break the rules and camp quietly without fire along the river, I am safer to a degree because the cops have chased out all the homeless camps (that may include mentally unstable folks)?

Should I be upset that both myself and homeless-types have lost a beautiful and legal place/way to camp?

Should I expect different treatment because I'm recreating (like being able to buy a camping permit) and the homeless are presumed to be trespassing?

Should I avoid the issue all together and save myself and a law enforcement officer the stress and potential danger of an encounter while i'm 'stealth' camping?

thoughts?

@ Kevin – I hear you on some homeless appearing very clean. Recently on a regional bus got hailed in the mountains by a fairly well-dressed man (clean jeans, clean hat, button up check shirt) carrying a fully-laden Osprey 85L pack while bike-packing in the mountains and the bike broke, etc… I caught a slight whiff of non-deorderant (but not "funk"), so I kind of suspected he was living up there since he didn't put any bike in the bike rack up front. Didn't press him on the issue as nothing added up but it started getting strained with the bus driver.

On stealthiness inside most city limits (like the Rio's Bosque), I'd pass unless truly falling short of distance; though your inflated raft may tell your story to any law enforcement – they actually may get a kick out of that. The city engineer might not however ; ) With regular UL gear, think most can pass for adventure joggers until finding a suitable site, then as PMags suggested, setting up a nice shelter.

HK Newman, I have no idea if that article is legit or not. It's almost impossible to get the full story on these kinds of things. But there is always another side to the story, or maybe even two other sides to the story.

"Tazers are iffy weapons in that they can trigger heart attacks and other fatal trauma. Most police departments have strong restrictions on their use, even when allowed."

They can cause heart attacks, but 99.7% of the time they do not according to the Dept of Justice. I don't know. Seems to work on the COPS TV show. :)

If I had a choice, I guess I would take my chances with the taser over an M4.

Ryan

A fatal gun response is never appropriate when the victim only has knife at a distance, imo.

"A fatal gun response is never appropriate when the victim only has knife at a distance, imo."

Yup. I agree.

I think for parks inside city limits overnight stays should remain illegal except in emergency situations. If you want to test out your setup during the day you should be more than welcome to do so (as it is in my area). This is not only out of respect for other park users but also for their safety and yours.

Obviously camping on private property should remain illegal.

Really the only problem I currently have with laws is a lack of backcountry camping at places in my area (e.g. designated tent sites only). But honestly with the amount of trash I see on backcountry trails I can't really blame them :(.

I am from the East and have always associated stealth camping with breaking the law/ park rules. If you are camping legally in a stealthy campsite, you're just camping respectfully IMO.

with only seeing the title if this thread,i was gonna say 'cops'.
i heard about this story and thought i read that the killer had been fired by another agency for violence.Oh well,you know how justice works…this killer/cop will be declared innocent.
Ive had enough encounters with rude,surly and aggressive cops.I think it takes a certain insecure,megalomaniac personality to be one.
I would like to see all cops have to contribute to,from their paycheck or union dues, a fund that pays for wrongfully killed,maimed victims of police brutality/dereliction instead of the taxpayers having to foot the bill via million dollar settlements.It might be the only way to keep cops in line.Also.their union should pay for their ridiculous,oversized funerals not the taxpayers.Also,what other job are you called a veteran after being employed for 6 months???hubris?

"Tazers … can cause heart attacks, but 99.7% of the time they do not according to the Dept of Justice."

It only takes one major law suit for a city/county/state to impose restrictive measures on the use of tazers/etc by their LEOs. Last year a guy in Vancouver was killed by a tazer. It directly affected policies of tazer use in SoCal police departments. It's not how often someone is killed, it's the real possibility of a major law suit. Bean bag shotguns are perceived as less harmful and thus less law suit prone. Brandishing a lethal weapon (see below) authorizes the use of lethal force in return.

"A fatal gun response is never appropriate when the victim only has knife at a distance, imo."

Police are trained by their departments to respond to a knife within 21 feet as an immediate lethal threat. If you check through YouTube you can find vids of the "21 Foot Rule" for cops, and why the rule exists. Which means in most jurisdictions, if you pull a knife on an LEO, you get shot, regardless of age, gender, race, etc.

"Ive had enough encounters with rude,surly and aggressive cops.I think it takes a certain insecure,megalomaniac personality to be one."

If everyone you met every day was during the worst part of their day (a run in with a cop for doing something illegal, no matter how trivial), and a certain percentage of those people were possibly going to turn on you with violence, I doubt you would be displaying your normal sweet, happy, friendly disposition either.

"Ive had enough encounters with rude,surly and aggressive cops.I think it takes a certain insecure,megalomaniac personality to be one."

That's about as ignorant a statement as I've seen on these forums. Sure, there are bad cops, just as there are bad apples in any profession, but most are just trying to do an often very difficult job as best they can. I appreciate the men and women who do the job, often without thanks.

That's about as ignorant a statement….''

speak for yourself…i speak from experience,you not so much….
if you lived in LA you wouldnt make an ignorant statement like that-lapd is a gang unto themselves…i had a cop point his gun at me from waist level with his finger on the trigger while he was sitting in his car=i consider that a death threat.My crime was that i walked up to his car to report a car accident down the street.
If youre a cop and you cant not be a homicidal nut,aggressive jerk or have ptsd from your job,get the hell out.Why should taxpayers pay with their lives and tax dollars for their bad behavior?I dont see taxi drivers or 7 11 cashiers killing people like cops do,and they have a higher fatality rate than cops.

Not saying the police should have let it go (I may be looking for a place nearby after-all) but after a few hrs., maybe slipping someone behind him for a taser shot or 2 might have been preferable to start with (they tase people all the time – I remember a clip of BLM ranger tasing someone in the "nads" with pretty good accuracy in southern California east of SD). Of course, not giving grief to the police helps immensely.

Reviewing the experiences, just do not surprise a policeman with any sudden or hidden moves if stealth camping (or jogging)

We have a saying down here…"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".
BUT IMHO the reaction of the police was wrong, even if the guy was nuts, he was way too far away to pose a "real" threat to them, they were an army, he was one man. All they had to do was use the dog, it's trained to bring a threat down. This is a very sad example of misuse of power.
As far as "stealth camping" goes, if you are going to do it you'd better be invisible, or suffer the consequences.

I know some people think "stealth camping" implies being illegal.

But, here's one blog post (among many) that shows it being used in a different context back East:
http://sectionhiker.com/stealth_camping/

Note the writer hikes mainly in New Hampshire.

I've noticed in Appalachian hiking circles, "Stealth camping" usually means camping in a non-established area. Again, there are so many established campsites in the Whites, the 'daks, the southern Appalachians etc that the term "stealth camping" has acquired a different meaning back there. Not illegal, just what we call "par for the course" out here in the Rockies. :D

Let's just say "illegal camping" and make it easier to understand by all for the sake of this discussion. :)

Ditto Paul.

Either Ray Jardine coined the term, or that was the first time I ever heard it. In that context, which I'm going to assume was the "original" one, it meant cooking/eating and then walking some more before camping, then using ultralight gear to set down almost anywhere for the night, a good distance from any trail or any place people typically congregate. It is kind of an extreme example of LNT, except where you camp in a place where no one has ever camped before, and where no one will ever camp again.

I think his original motivation was more like LNT, but Jardine also claimed that in this way he could basically sleep with his food and never get bugged by bears. Like a lot of his assertions he makes the extrapolation from his personal experiences, and sometime even random opinions (e.g. corn meal pasta is better for your soul), to general rules with exaggerated ease. Still the strategy w/respect to bears can't hurt.

I have never heard "stealth camping" used before to refer to what people do when they enter the country from the south – unless you mean by having little food and water and no gear you are "stealth camping" by default. I think someone on here just decided to make this conclusion more or less at random. But stealth camping is a term of ultralight backpacking introduced, as far as I know, by Ray Jardine starting with his PCT handbook, but it is certainly possible it has an earlier provenance. Pretty sure the border patrol and the coyotes never heard of it before.

Edit: Yep. In "Beyond Backpacking" in the chapter titled "Stealth Camping" Jardine claims to have coined the term.

Having read the thread, I think the part of the country you are in matters a lot. I live in Alaska. Nearly every cop I've dealt with was fine and acted like the public servant he signed up to be. And stealth camping is not uncommon up here and generally not illegal (provided you aren't trespassing). Homeless people and their camps are acted on by law enforcement due to complaints from local property owners (and nearly always occur within the city, as that's where the resources for food/alcohol etc. are) but I can't recall an incident where it involved lethal force. And I think the studies have shown that many homeless are indeed mentally ill, so I expect the cops are trained to deal with it. The guy in question that got shot in the OP's post seemed to me to be mentally ill and in need of help.