Sleeping Wth Your Food in Black Bear Country

[M B]

Most of the sierra requires either:

Bear cannister
Bear-resistant container
Hanging by approved counterbalance method

Sleeping with food, isnt mentioned as acceptable in an regulation that Im aware of. Because there isnt a cannister rule, doesnt mean that there arent food rules. Check the regs.

I have slept with food a lot on the AT. Bears there dont worry me a bit. They want your food, but they will not challenge you to get it. Food is actually safer with you, than hanging for sure. You are safer with your food hanging. Your food, is safer with YOU.

Western bears may be more aggressive for whatever reason. Possibly less abundant natural food sources, droughts, less hunting pressure (national parks), allow them to have less conditioned fear of humans.

Just as bears normally wont challenge you for food in your pack during the day, they are unlikely to go after food in your possession, even at night. If it is a few feet away, they might.

Unfortunately, while extremely rare, the consequences for you could be serious if you get one with a bad attitude. The consequences for the bear, are however worse.

That said, IMO most people do such a poor job of hanging food, it would be in the best interest of the bears, if they just slept with it. It would lessen the bears chances of getting it.

A couple of years ago Mountain Crossings on the AT in GA kept tabs on food bags lost to bears reported by the thruhikers coming thru. ( The NFS instituted a bear can regulation shortly thereafter from March to June every year). At one point that spring the score was : Foodbags lost while hanging about 75 , foodbags lost while sleeping with food…Zero.

Anything less than a perfect hang from the perfect branch, is worse than no hang at all IMO.

[James holden]

squirrels can climb much harder than 5.9 .. ive seen rodents climb 5.11 slab easy

its always fun when a squirrel runs up your climbing rope towards you

as to bear … a fed bear is a dead bear …

dont feeda bears one way or another …

IMO not having dead fed bears is probably more important in the grand scheme of things than REI "ULness", warranty "scamming", windshirt brethability or minute headlamp differences

thats all there is to it

;)

[David Thomas]

>"By the time I looked back to my pack, probably 60 seconds later, the bear was almost on it. I scared it away easily. "

This has been my experience in the Sierra as well. Bears are brazen and very knowledgable about frequently used campsites at night and even frequently used rest spots in the middle of the day. I've seen many, perhaps the majority, of Sierra backpackers afraid to scare off a bear.

Grizzlies, I don't chase but I don't back down from them either (for a demonstration by someone with the ovaries to do so, here is BPL's own Erin McKittrick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iinv_5e_QGg

With black bears, I grab the biggest stick around and run at the bear, intent on how hard I will hit the bear when I get there. The black bear is not there by the time I arrive 7 seconds later. You don't need to have bigger claws or teeth, you just need to be the better actor.

"Wilderness Area?", Phooey! With trails, switchbacks, bridges, solar-powered outhouses, etc, etc? I wish they'd just put metal food lockers in popular campsites. The calories going to bears could be reduced greatly.

[Bob Gross]

"trails, switchbacks, bridges, solar-powered outhouses"

David, I guess you know that the solar-powered outhouses were removed from the Mount Whitney Trail years ago.

In parts of SEKI, metal food lockers were state-of-the-art about 25 years ago. Then NPS determined that they were concentrating too much backpacker use right around them, so they started disappearing again more recently.

–B.G.–

[Dan Magdoff]

I feel like I have definetly done my share of backpacking all over the sierras. Ive packed heavely in Yosemite, Dinkey lakes, Tahoe Area, Desolation Wilderness and Emigrant Wilderness to name a few. And have hiked very extensively in the John Muir Wilderness and Northern Kings Canyon area I have always used a bear can in the areas where it is required, but otherwise I have just hung my food. In the 20+ years and hundrends upon hundreds upon hundreds of miles hiked, I have never, once had a problem with a bear. I have seen plenty of bears on the trail, but as soon as they see me, they run away. I have NEVER had one in my camp (that I know of).

I think the most important thing isnt really how your food is stored, but your camp set up and preperation. Making sure to eat and sleep away from each other, not leave food scraps all over, clean up properly after meals.

Be smart and responsible and you shouldnt have any problems.

Just my two cents…

[James Marco]

Assuming we will have some sort of problem, every trip out increases the odds that we WILL have a problem that trip.
Here is an easy demonstration:
Like Russian Roulette with a five shot pistol: 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, absolute.
Assuming we survived the first shot, your odds have changed. you have 4 unknowns one of which has a live round or 1/4…
Logic dictates that you will reduce your odds of survival with every shot taken, assuming we survive. Go first, your odds of survival are better than going last. In any finite system, sooner or later you hit the absolute certanty. Overall, you always have a 1/5 chance at the start, however. But from within the system, the odds change. Only in an infinitly growing system do your odds stay the same.

[Dave G]

Art,

There are plenty of Bear Lockers along the HST, why not sleep next to one of them?

Dave

[Buck Nelson]

Well, Sleeping with your food in bear country is a lot like playing Russian Roulette five times with a five shot pistol. It is not a matter of "if", more a matter of "when."

Sorry, but that's not even close to true. There is likely no danger in the outdoors more wildly over-rated than bears.

As far as I know there hasn't been a person killed by a wild bear in California since the 1870s.

I have slept with my food in bear country many hundreds of times. There are places I won't, and one situation I won't is where it's illegal. In those places it tends to be illegal for good reason. Following the rules saves people's food, gear and the lives of bears and reduces the minimal risk for people even more.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

[Marko Botsaris]

"squirrels can climb much harder than 5.9 .. ive seen rodents climb 5.11 slab easy"

Thanks for this Eric (and Bob), it made me crack up. It was before my morning coffee and I was just imagining a snippet of conversation overheard from some dirtbaggers at camp 4 under the heading – things climbers argue about when they aren't climbing.

@James, Jacob Bernoulli is spinning his grave at your probability analysis. Plus, as anyone who has played Russian roulette the RIGHT way (and won) would know, you are supposed to spin the cylinder each time. There is some sort of very culturally inappropriate joke in there about "Polish" or "Newfie" Russian roulette. I think that is on the same page of the encyclopedia with David's playing chicken with bears. :-)

I think Buck and Dan do have it right – stealth camping (even if you have a bear can) really does work most of the time.

[Anonymous]

"any perceived issues ?"

Always a possibility of a bear sniffing around, but you should be fine if you are careful about handling your food and where you eat it. A very lightweight insurance policy would be to put your food bag in a nylobarrier odor proof, or nearly so, sack and seal it well. If you do that AND keep it inside your bivy bag, I'd say no worries. I do it all the time, except for the bivy part. The lower you descend the HST toward Upper Funston Meadows, the more likely you are to encounter a bear, but I don't see it as a problem unless you do something stupid, which I doubt a guy of your experience will.

[Mike W]

>> As far as I know there hasn't been a person killed by a wild bear in California since the 1870s. <<

That may be true but there have been a dozen non-fatal bear attacks in California since 1980. I don't want to be killed or mauled so the non-fatal statistic doesn't make me feel any better.

A bears sense of smell is so incredibly good, it will know you have food even at a significant distance away (especially if it's down wind of you).

I pulled this off the American Bear Association website.

"A bear has been known to detect a human scent more than fourteen hours after the person passed along the trail"

So I would assume that if you carry your food to your tent, you have left a very nice "invisible but smelly trail" right up to your shelter. Not something I'm going to do!

[Derek M.]

Are we really having this conversation? Really?

Just to be clear here: we are talking about forgoing the simple act of securing your food against bears (and other wild animals, by the way) in known bear country— places where bears have been empirically shown to specifically target hiker food.

And all this over what? 1oz of weight for 50' of ultralight spectra cord like Z-Line and 5 minutes of time to find a suitable branch and hang your food?

I'm sorry but if one can't bother to take these simple precautions then that person is just being lazy. Let just call this for what it is… Reckless laziness.

I'm not directing this at anyone here in particular, I'm just saying…

[Marko Botsaris]

"Grizzlies, I don't chase but I don't back down from them either (for a demonstration by someone with the ovaries to do so, here is BPL's own Erin McKittrick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iinv_5e_QGgGrizzlies, I don't chase but I don't back down from them either (for a demonstration by someone with the ovaries to do so, here is BPL's own Erin McKittrick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iinv_5e_QGg&quot;

This is a pretty interesting video. I probably would have peed myself, let alone carefully filmed the encounter. Still it is pretty obvious there is nothing else to do. Maybe I missed it, but it didn't even sound like there was that much stress in her voice. Guess she was very experienced.

It was interesting when the bear suddenly took off running. I guess once it crossed the threshold between thinking "food" and "not food" evolution just told it "if it ain't good then don't stick around to find out if it is bad". On the other hand, the fact that it was so clearly thinking "possible food" right up to then is very humbling.

I think I have seen too many Hollywood movies because when the bear suddenly ran off I expected for them to briefly bask in their victory before turning around to realize the the bear was scared off my a much bigger bear behind them. :-)

Black bears don't bother me much, but grizzlies are too awesome to ignore. I know it is about %99.9 psychological, but when I was backpacking solo in Yellowstone for a few days it felt very primal. Probably next time I will go with a group… maybe of older, slower folks.

[Bob Shaver]

I backpacked a lot in the Sierra in the early 1970s and aggressive bears or bears at high elevation were just not a problem. OK, things are different now. Nowadays I backpack a lot in Idaho, where bears at elevation are just not an issue. I generally hand the food in a tree, in recent trips in the Uintas, Winds, White Clouds, and Sawtooths.

My problem now is I have diabetes, and when hiking hard I can go to sleep and wake up with super low blood sugar. I need to eat something quick, and the perfect food for that moment is yogurt covered raisins. I know that eating 10 of them will be about right, or 10 more if I'm still hungry. I've been risking having 20 raisins in my tent, and its been ok so far. I'm going on a canyon hike in So Utah next week, and I've heard there are bears there. its a seldom visited canyon, so the bears are not likely to be aggressive. So if you had to have a small amount of food handy, what is the best way to do it?

Even without food in your tent, you have food smells on your clothes and body, plus possibly mint toothpaste, and deodorant, so its impossible to be "pure" in your bear attraction quotient. How could you keep your BAQ as low as possible, while having some food in your tent? At Philmont they have you have a different change of clothes for sleeping and for cooking, and have your kitchen far away from your sleeping place. I doubt many hikers go to that extreme.

[rick .]

Excuse my ignorance on canisters, but are there any canisters (approved or not) in the 1-2 night size? I understand that approving them could be cost-preventative, and weight-to-volume ratios would be terrible, but I assume the market is there for weekend warriors. I'd buy one. I'd buy one with the capacity of less than 1 gallon ziplock, as that's more than enough for "day 2 of 2" food.

[Bob Gross]

Bear canisters must be of a size sufficient that a bear can't bite it.

The smallest legal one that I have is a Bear Boxer. I think it is 1.6 pounds and is good for about 2.5 days of food.

–B.G.–

[Ben H.]

Here are my notes (weight ±1 oz based on reports from the field):

Bear Boxer 101 26 oz 275 cu in.
Lighter1 lil sami 27 oz. 300 cu in
Bearikade Scout 28 oz 500 cu in
BearVault BV450 33 oz 440 cu in

[Art …]

full disclosure, I own a Bearikade Scout and its great.

now as to the topic of this thread : Risk Assessment

There is only one absolute in human existence (no taxes are not absolute, the very rich have proven that).

Everything else in our lives is risk assessment … risk v.s. reward.

Its about risk assessment for both the hiker and the bear.
If we truly wanted to protect the bear we would stay out of the wilderness entirely.
No method of keeping the bear from our food is absolute, not even the Garcia apparently.

Its about how far away a bear can smell our food, whether he cares, and how aggressive he might be in trying to get it.

Its also about solutions.
is not cooking and carrying low scent food wrapped in an odor bag as good as hanging, or a bear cannister.
is sleeping at altitude away from everyone else at least partially effective, or should we just camp with everyone else and trust that our bear can and group psychology will scare the bear away.

[rick .]

Art,

I'd thought there were plenty of good responses. 4 or 5 people told you it was crazy-talk, a few less said its fine. A few recounted personal/anecdotal stories of attacks. In the end, I'd be surprised if you didn't do exactly what you wanted anyway (as we all are prone to do).

I asked what the shortest distance to a (nearly) fool-proof solution to your problem was, for my own education, which seems to be 1.6lb bearboxer. Or 1oz of hanging cord and 4 minutes' time. You're well aware of those options. I understand your reluctance with either, but thems the breaks, as they say.

I think you should take a nice round number of trips, 100 works for me, and track the data of how many times you get mauled. That's the only way to assess risks like these.

If its 0/100 sightings, will you have put an end to the bear canister industry? no.

[Glenn S]

Just so I'm clear on this…

Weighing the risk of a bear attack over sleeping with your food or not is a viable discussion worthy of debate…

But stuffing yourself before a 5 hour "nap" and just eating again when you walk back out the next evening isn't even an option? Have none of you ever gone even a single day without food? More "first world" problems? The risk of a bear mauling, is preferable to 18 hours without food?

[Anonymous]

"the bivy is below 10,000 ft so an increased chance of those friendly furry guys.

any perceived issues ?"

It would help if you could be a little more specific as to where you intend to bivy below 10,000'. I know the area East of Kaweah Gap pretty well, and might be able to offer some insights on bears in that area, as well as a bombproof way to protect your food, i.e. food storage lockers. There is one at Upper Funston Meadows supposedly reserved for horse packers, but the ones I met a few years back were fine with me using it. There is also at least one at Kern Hot Springs, Junction Meadow, and the junction of the JMT and Wallace Creek. There are definitely bears in the Upper Funston Meadow area(I have sighted them),which would include Kern Hot Springs, and along the JMT. I have never seen any at Junction Meadow, or even any sign of them, but that food storage locker is there for a reason. I believe there is also a locker at the Little Five Lakes turn off from the Big Arroyo trail going down to Upper Funston, but I didn't see it. You can check that out with SEKI HQ if you are contemplating a nap there. But really, if you are careful with your food, which I suspect is pretty low odor, no cook given you are fast packing, and maybe put it in an odor proof sack for storing it(after washing your hands), you should be able to just stash it in your bivy and let it go at that. Should you find yourself near a food locker, prudence dictates that you use it, but either way I doubt you will have any trouble. Very low risk, IMO.

Have a great trip.

[Bob Gross]

I find Sierra Nevada black bears to be very curious and sneaky, right up to the point where they get their nose or paws at it. Then they shift and claim the food as theirs. From then on, it is not some passive animal, but an aggressive beast.

If you can wake up when the bear is still three feet away, then it is still your food and you can defend it. Once the bear is on it, it is his food and he will defend it, even if it means mauling the human.

–B.G.–

[Mike W]

>> Its about how far away a bear can smell our food, whether he cares, and how aggressive he might be in trying to get it. <<

@Art

I know this is your thread so I can't tell you what it's about but you have to understand that many of us can't/won't hear what you are saying because it makes no sense to us.

It's not about bears getting food, I don't believe you really care about that. It's about bears getting YOU.

If a bear gets my food, I'll be pissed but not a big deal. In my case however, the bear won't be on top of me when he goes for my food, because it will be elsewhere.

I cook away from my shelter because the food smell will linger and bears will smell it. I don't change my clothes because I'm a light weight backpacker and don't have extra clothes.

This is probably a bit more of a concern for those of us that are in areas with lots of bears, but even so, why gamble over a bag of food?

In my opinion, this isn't a case of hike your own hike… If a bear mauls you when he tries to get your food he will be destroyed. It really bothers me when bears are destroyed because people have been careless.

[Greg Mihalik]

" It's about bears getting YOU."

A valid concern in B.C.

Not so much in the Sierra.

[Author]

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