30F Bag Comparisons–which to buy? (with spreadsheet!)

I'd throw the FFriends Vireo into your mix. I bought a bone stock Vireo Nano over Christmas and have been quite impressed thus far. The design works; the lower 2/3s is a very slim 20 degree bag, and the design of the upper part really cinches around a puffy well. Select an appropriate coat, and taking it down to 20 or lower is very comfortable. Construction quality and detailing is exceptional all around. Cheaper than anything you've listed, as well.

I'm sure people will chime in on build quality, but I know which one I'd chose: Any of the sub-20oz bags with 2" loft and 2 more ounces of down / $100 less than their competition.

The Enigma is working some fabric magic to make the shell with 5oz. My guess is most of the savings is in an efficient sewn footbox.

I think if you had all of the exact lofts, that would be the best initial sort method, direct contributor to warmth. If one was 1.9" and another was 2.1" and both published 2, that would be very misleading in the chart. That's the one spec I wish everyone was held to test and publish dead accurate numbers. But with the data you have the sort is correct.

If the jacks'r'better loft is accurate, that's a bargain bag, at a 'sacrifice' of 24oz. I'd have a hard time not taking that one for colder trips and keeping the golite for summer. (or use the $100-150 "saved" to buy most of a sub-16oz one!)

Anyway, good info!

Thanks for the Vireo suggestion, David; I've edited the above to include Nano and UL. I'm not too familiar with FF, so didn't notice it before. Interesting concept. Hard to know where to place it on the list, given the variable temp–it appears to be cut generously to allow layering, and as you say, the price for Nano (or UL) is pretty nice.

Rick, I agree that what Tim manages to do for warmth/weight/cost is hard to believe. But he has the reputation here to back it up. I like that the "cost" per ounce between Revelation and Enigma is $10–or, put another way, the weight "cost" for a fully-openable footbox is only 2 oz.

I've tried to measure loft on my own bags–there's enough guesswork there I don't know if 0.1" accuracy means anything. Maybe if there was an industry standard for *how* to measure…

I wanted a 30-40F quilt, and ended up with the Katabatic Palisade. While I hesitate to call buying such a wonderful piece of gear a mistake, as a very warm sleeper, it's actually a 15-20F quilt for me.
Only had it since January 25, and this winter has been colder than normal in the South, so the 6 nights I have spent in it were from 0-24F. Great so far, with the addition of a down jacket on the coldest nights, but I'm concerned that it will be too warm over 40F and that Katabatic's Chisos model might have been a better choice for me.

Some of the features are worth mentioning, since you asked for comments. The cut of the bag naturally cocoons your body while the overstuffed collar and system for clipping the quilt to the pad seal out drafts. As an active sleeper, I've had no problem with drafts after locking the quilt down on the supplied cords, and drawing the clips close together underneath. Because the quilt narrows above the shoulders, there's no sensation of having it bunched around the neck when using the snap and drawcord.
The overstuffed trapezoidal footbox…well, my feet were warm at 0F in midweight Smartwools, so I guess that feature deserves an endorsement, too.

It's my first quilt, so I have no basis of comparison to others aside from noting the more obvious differences, but the quality of materials and construction is impeccable. 'Course you would expect that from a quilt that was $470(regular/wide size with 850 fill). btw, it came in at 20.32oz, just a bit under the advertised 21.1.
I'm highly critical of my gear, and quick to point out shortcomings of even my favorites, but aside from potentially being too warm, I have yet to discover anything I would change about the Palisade. I don't know that any piece of gear is "perfect", but the word certainly comes to mind.

Look into HammockGear’s Burrow line
http://www.hammockgear.com/top-quilts/

Burrow 20° $249.00 74X50(regular size) 12oz fill, 17.1 oz total

Burrow 40° $219.00 74×50 (regular size) 7oz fill, 11.6 oz total

del

I have a Chisos wide with 2oz over fill and it is warm into the low twenties with little extra clothing. I had a Sawatch that at 23.5 oz was warm to zero with a light puffy and thermal tights. Having owned now 5 (with a new Alsek wide), the Katabatic bags have been much warmer than stated and the construction is beyond reproach and second to none.

I have purchased everything out there for comparison, with the exception of the new Enigma, and while more money, I still feel Katabatic is the best overall value. I can also highly recommend Feathered Friends bags as well and the Viero is a great value and superbly constructed.

I have a Nano Vireo and was greatly impressed how well it sheds watercondenstationsidespray. I don't know if the UL Vireo has that ability.
I'm using it with a Helios and was quite warm at 28 degrees.
Not much loft in the top half of the bag but I compared it with a few other bags
side by side in the snow, it was the warmest.

I also have a Katabatic Alsek and love the clip system for comfort and I plan to
use it in the summer in the Sierra.

It looks like your spreadsheet is using the 800FP version of the Enigma. Myself, I have my eye on the 750FP version. It's only a .75 oz difference in weight (for a regular length/regular width) and you save $65.

When you get a kit down to 7 lbs and want to get to 6, the ounces dont come cheap.

The $100 for a quilt thats 3 oz lighter or so, is actually a bargain. Consider you possible future weight goals when purchasing.

>I've tried to measure loft on my own bags–there's enough guesswork there I don't know if 0.1" accuracy means anything. Maybe if there was an industry standard for *how* to measure…

I agree that a ruler and a scrap of cardboard doesn't yield meaningful results. There'd have to be a standard, but look at the setup they have now to test EN comfort level! and the inconsistency in that.

Loft is A (the?) critical factor in warmth. And it is a single distance measurement. Do it on an airhockey table with a laser scanner, and average the whole bag, I dunno. There's less variables in that than a dressed dummy with sensors!

I imagine it's rounded .24" or more, if measured with any care at all. Meaning two bags can vary .48" before anyone would blink at both of them stating the same number. That means you're comparing a 2.2"/25f to a 1.75"/40f at the same stated 2" loft, price and maybe even weight (before anyone considers it a "lie"!). 25% difference in spec without doing anything shady. Both manufacturers call them 30 because one is shady and the other one is conservative, or their dummy test rigs differ.

If the loft were given to .1" accuracy for every bag, you would know that, for example 1.9-2" = 30f for me, and buy accordingly.

/rant -sorry to derail…

I agree Tim's reputation precedes him, and from the things he's posted I know he takes care in carefully designed bags. Fabric Magic was meant as a compliment!

Hmm, I remember reading a Nisley post where he emphatically stated that loft was NOT the be all end all measurement. That density of packing counted, too. Did I misunderstand? If not, the implication was you couldn't arrive at definitive judgments based on measurements of loft alone.

he said that the amount of down fill worked better … accounting for the size of the bag of course

and of course en-ratings are the "best" for RELATIVE comparison to each other … since they are actual tested values of the entire bag …

not just assumptions based on correlations …

;)

Right…I think he was talking jackets (at least in the post I read) and what caught my attention was density of fill being an important factor, not just loft. I wish I could find the post.

So a bag that's "overstuffed" may not have any more loft, but may be considerably warmer.

EDIT: Aha:

"Trying to determine the warmth of a garment by just measuring its loft is a measure of futility. For example, the Patagonia Polarguard Delta Pullover and a Wild Things Primaloft One sweater both have a loft of .6”. The Wild Things sweater is more than 27% warmer. The Montbell Alpine jacket has 2” of loft and box baffles yet the New Balance Fugu, which uses sewn through construction, and only has 1.5” loft is 64% warmer. The Montbell Alpine Jacket and the Montbell Permafrost Parka both use box baffles and have 2” of loft; the Permafrost Parka is 41% warmer. A Polartec 300 jacket has .25”loft and a Patagonia Polarguard Delta pullover has .6” loft and yet their insulation value is the same. The only two cases in which the loft is relevant is if you want to compare synthetic garments using the same insulation type and quilting. The other case is base layer garments; their warmth is correlated with their thickness."

From the infamous thread 18950.

Yes, Richard's thread is the one that sent me to do more research on insulation factors beyond the typical assumptions. After a fair amount of research it was clear that loft as THE indicator for warmth was flawed.

I put my money where my research and limited knowledge led me and ordered a new quilt with overfill. This added the warmth I was looking for at the least possible weight and the added down density stabilized the down, eliminating shifting and cold spots, as I tossed and turned throughout the night.

According to a number of studies, down could be compressed up to 2.5x and still maintain most of its warmth. The standard 30% overfill could be greatly increased without increasing the baffle height while still receiving the benefit of increased insulation.

In actual use I have found this to be true in bags/quilts and jackets. While my testing would be considered anecdotal at best, I have found that personal experience is my preferred method of developing trust in equipment – particularly repeatable results in varying conditions.

First I have updated your data that remained blank or was incorrect for the 30* bag you have chosen. (Revision #3)

.

"What is the best bag is the question?" I believe "best" can be BEST evaluated from the stand point of three variables: 1.) down quantity, 2.) down quality and 3.) final product weight. The other options of bag w/wo hood or quilt, shell fabric and cost you must determine based on your needs and preferences.

You have chosen many of the top rated and excellent bags and any one would serve you well

I have the Montbell ULSS#3 and couldn't love it more for three season backpacking. At ~ 1.5 lbs and one of the more spacious bags I've slept in, hard to go wrong with it.

I'm in the market for a 0* bag. After visiting the Feathered Friends store in Seattle, it'll be difficult to choose between buying another MB bag or the Ibis EX0 from Feathered Friends.

Thanks to all.

Owen, John, and others–thanks for confirming Katabatic's reputation for quality. I'm not opposed to spending over $400 on a bag, but if I do, I'd like it to be one of the last bags I buy (well, at least for another twenty years).

I hadn't considered overfilling a Chisos–it's an interesting idea and I recall the Nisely research Eric and Delmar mentioned about down density increasing warm for a given loft height. However, since I'm right at the edge of Katabatic's size range for small (I'm 5'6") I wonder if overfill won't shorten the length of the quilt enough to cause problems. If I jump up to the next size, and then overfill that, the (slight) weight and cost advantage of overfilling a Chisos vs. buying a small Palisade disappears.

I considered having the Vireo overfilled as well, so the top half would be a few degrees warmer, but realized that would prob. make it harder to use in the 40s, since there's no zipper or other way of opening it for ventilation. The Vireo is still a very intriguing bag–I'd prob. have to get a warmer puffy than my MB Down Inner to use into shoulder seasons.

Rick (NYC): I understood you to mean 'fabric magic' as a complement. The Enigma's still high on my list–plus, I remember when Tim Marshall was just a guy posting quilts he'd made on the MYOG forum, so it's great to see him turn it into a successful company. With regard to your larger point, I'd like to see manufacturers specify baffle height rather than loft. That combined with fill weight (and fill power, to some extent) would make it pretty easy to compare, AND get some sense of how overfilled the stock bag is.

Eric, as far as I know, EN ratings don't apply to quilt-style bags. Don't know if they apply to hoodless bags or not. And even if they did, the expense may put EN rating out of reach for cottage makers. I don't see how assuming more or less the same temp rating for two bags with the same fill weights, baffle heights and fabric types is problematic. Nor do I see how a non-EN rating company could maintain its stellar reputation for decades, resist the pressure to move production overseas, continue to command premium prices, AND get away with exaggerated temp rating vs. EN rated bags. But I realize this is an old debate.

Rick M. and Ian: I was a little worried about some of these choices being too narrow–then I measured my Golite: 49" at best. And it works for me. So I think any of these choices will be okay, if not roomy. Most of the hooded bags (including the Montbell) are there for comparison, rather than something that's really on my short list–I don't like hoods enough to take the weight penalty.

Ken Larson: Thanks for the updates to the spreadsheet. A couple things: the length of the Vireo I'm looking at *is* actually 62" (5'2") rather than 6'2". And I'm (perhaps naively) considering any fill from 800 on up to be more or less the same under field conditions. I appreciate companies (like EE) that offer treated down as an option, but don't see myself as an early adopter. In the case of Katabatic, this means going for a nominally higher FP. In the case of EE, going for nominally lower.

Again, thanks to everyone for commenting.

If you are thinking of overfill and are 5'6", I would recommend going up to the next size. My overfilled Chisos "shrunk" 3 or 4 inches when compared to my non overfilled Alsek and Sawatch. In actual use it really isn't noticeable but but since you are at the end of the range for a short bag it may prove to be the better choice.

Thats interesting, and I had read (and apparently forgot) that post in infamous 18950.

I have a follow-up? Why isn't every bag "overstuffed"? Ie discount the FP to increase down density.

Its just shorter baffles if you maintain fillweight.

If the EN testing would come out warmer just by increasing density (overstuff) why is it an add option and not standard practice?

That's what I don't get. I imagine a lot of it is the higher density prevents loft sagging and fills nooks/crannies better.

I'm fully accepting I'm way out of my depth on this one! Just curious about all this, since I sew my own.

David,

I can confirm katabatic as top quality. I purchased my wife a quilt from there back when they were new and cheap-er. Top quality. Much more loft than my similarly rated nanatuk. Her 30 degree quilt is as lofty as her 15 degree bag.

"I have a follow-up? Why isn't every bag "overstuffed"? Ie discount the FP to increase down density."
There are too many variables to consider when you try to market this. If you stuck with exact fillpower, you end up with a bag/quilt that is too lean. Here, I would cite the Jacks or Better quilts of a couple years ago. Techically, they were filled with a minimum fill weight allowing maximum "fluffing" or expansion of the feathers. The quilt would develop cold spots over the course of the night, especially for active sleepers. This was fairly well documented a couple years ago. The solution was a couple ounces of overfill. At the current cost of down, this means 10-20 dollars in down. Not something a manufacturor is willing to add without cause. It just costs more to manufacturer.

Adding 2x the fill would about raise the cost of materials by $50-80 in a typical covering. And really have no effect other than to insure good performance if the down is degraded through moisture, dirt, lack of care, etc. It just adds weight, making the bag look like it is a lot heavier than it needs to be. Would you select a 30f bag that weighed 23oz or one that weighed 33oz? By the same token that 2.5x the ammount of down does not really hurt performance, it really doesn't help, other than insurance. It WOULD potentially help if provided more room to loft. It would then be a different bag! I believe the discussion of the article decided 10-15% overstuffing was adequate for most uses.

While down heat retention is mostly due to convectional disruption, larger pockets are less efficient than smaller pockets. This is generally why higher fill downs are better than lower fill downs, there is more branches per plume. However, each branch looses "stiffness". So with higher fill downs, moisture, dirt and body oils degrade it faster than the stiffer lower fill downs. 750FP downs are more consistent over a night than 900fill downs for this reason, in the real world of camping.

Increased density will generally increase heat loss thru conduction. So, increasing the amount of down in a covering might also increase heat loss. I believe this was noted by Mr Nisley and was it was decided that a max of 2.5 was a maximum. Note that sleeping on the bag is a special case. Especially applicable to and around the edges as the down goes from highly compressed to maximum uncompressed, or, rougly 30-40% of a bag. Under you, the feathers still provide fair to good insulation.

One of the worst things that can happen with a bag is cold spots. For example, at 30F sleeping under a 0f bag with your feet hanging out. Your feet get cold and your entire perception is of getting cold. Even though your torso is more than warm enough. This is rather extreme, but just to make a point. This is where "clinginess" or "stickiness" of down plumes comes into play. Eider down only has a loft of 750-800. Yet the perception of the warmth it provides is roughly equivalent to 900-950fp goose down. The difference is the stickiness of the down plumes. The plumes have more barbs on them allowing them to lock together better, forming a more even coating over the entire surface. Expensive as hell, it is considered superior to goose down even at it's lower loft. Cold spots are a big reason that overstuffing works as well as it does, filling in gaps, and edges. 'Corse, a bag will cost between 5000 and 7000 USD.

As far as loft sagging, yes. This happens. Overstuffing does help to alleviate this. But under what conditions do you propose to test it? Air pressure, mosture content, what fabric weight, and so on. No, the only feasable way is to just measure a bag, then let the user decide if it warm enough. The EN ratings usually give a WIDE spread, just don't expect them to keep you warm (forgive me) unless you are a dummy.

James,

I think I wasn't quite clear in my question, I'm saying:

maintain fillweight, and
use shorter baffles, to hit the "overstuff" mark.

Not just stuffing more down in, which is the typical process now (and sounds like it was/is needed in underfilled bags). More down obviously weighs more, that has the issues you bring up.

I guess I'm asking why aren't bags just stuffed to the optimum amount? and what is that amount? haha. Sounds like some small fraction less than labtested FP. Different manufacturers have different theories? Surely they test and refine these things.

Because the shell weight stays (nominally) constant, you'd think that you could optimize temp vs. weight if you got the density just exactly right.

>But under what conditions do you propose to test it? Air pressure, mosture content, >what fabric weight, and so on. No, the only feasable way is to just measure a bag, >then let the user decide if it warm enough.

Just give me all of the data points, and I'll draw conclusions from that (in parallel to the EN tests). I don't work for ASTM, so I don't know/care how, but there are reasonable ways to control variables on this. The reports I've read over the years on the EN ratings give me the conclusion its far from a perfect tool, so more data can't hurt here. And few cottage quilts are EN tested, some mainstream bags aren't either.

As it is now loft is seemingly rounded to the nearest quarter/half inch, if given. That is sort of all I was asking. Someone wrote above that the baffle height, along with other info, would be enough, that'd be a great start. That's easy to include on a spec list.

I work in architecture, its common to see every spec and dimension and inner workings of say a window assembly, and understand and compare pros/cons of the components, then choose one that fits the particular need. So I tend towards expecting info in that way, not trusting an industry standard test. More, accurate, data can't hurt on a spec list (except it shows who is lying where!)

Just give me all of the data points, and I'll draw conclusions from that (in parallel to the EN tests). I don't work for ASTM, so I don't know/care how, but there are reasonable ways to control variables on this. The reports I've read over the years on the EN ratings give me the conclusion its far from a perfect tool, so more data can't hurt here. And few cottage quilts are EN tested, some mainstream bags aren't either.

Well, I don't know. Too much data can result in too fine of a resolution in the result. For just humidity, there is data needed every 15 minutes to measure the amount of himidity in/around the down. Then we can look at the area you are camping in. Above tree line, below tree line, near a stream or lake, in a vally, on a ridge, below a ridge, in a field, under a tree, and so on. Then we can look at the region we camp in, pehaps in relation to the overall average conditions for rain, temperature, etc that effect himidity, whitch in turn effect water vopour in the bag. Finaly we have just the general climatactic conditions, be it tropical, temperate, arctic, or whatever. All this, and probably the perspiration rate between sexes, size of individuals, and more, effect the overall dampness of a bag. And for any one individual, it would still not be correct because there is a wide variation in the overall ideal sleep conditions between individuals. Yes, you can certainly drop these on a spreadsheet, plot a chart of three variable data points simultaneosly. Without engineering training, you cannot integrate more. N-Dimensional data analysis (one form of linear algebra) is not apparent nor seems to make sense to most. Better to use the fuzzy data of an EN test and simply give a wide range…it makes more sense to most people.