Modular Pack idea, anyone seen anything like this?

I'll put some pen to paper. But James, the weights you listed seem high. Using 15L drybags at 1-1.5oz each makes it hard to get up to your 4oz for bags. Thats S-to-s ultrasil weight as a rough start. If its the same cuben everyone else makes packs out of its less than an ounce for all 4 smallish bags, not 16oz.

And you need to remember to add the weight of any sacks you do carry now to the pack weight.

Id be happy to be at the smd swift weight (or slightly higher) I have now for weekend summer loads 15oz, 18 with hipbelt empty, and gain some gear pockets over a single main rucksack.

Well, I was assuming some good pack cloth, maybe PU coated. Of course this would be worst case. I am sure you could do better…

Rick said: John,

A lot of things already get stuffed into a sack. So that time is a wash, the fastening those sacks (or pouring them into a packbag) is the variable. I think that's where the key lies anyway, it's easy to overdo that and make a frame/harness/strap system that is heavier than one with just an actual bag!

The issue is the attachment method that I've gone with for ~90% of my gear. Items I need during the day (lunch and afternoon snacks excepted; I pull both of those at lunch time) are located in easy-to-access points (I have a mil surplus MOLLE sustainment pouch on my left hip and a mil surplus water bottle holder with a pocket on it on my right hip; my poncho and any possibles clothing go on some shock cord I've woven through the top three PALS array rows on the back panel). However, if I need something from in a sack (like my lunch), I have to loosen the straps holding the sack to the back panel. This takes a bit of time to do, but more to reverse, as the weight distribution needs to be correct and the straps have to be tight to prevent slippage (and possible loss of gear!).

The morning pack routine goes like this: pull the pack and ditty bag off of the hammock suspension, grab my food bag from the nearby tree, detach my poncho from the hammock (if I'm using it as my undercover), skin the hammock and insulation, roll up and skin the tarp, and detach everything from the trees. Now I've got a pile of gear. If I was using a single-bag solution, it'd be simplicity itself to just stuff everything in there (done it). However, I've got my DIY pack, which requires a bit more work. My skinned hammock and tarp go on the bottom of the back panel; this requires threading my tree straps through two PALS columns, then placing the hammock on the panel, tightening the center strap (which isn't a tree strap, but I've found helpful in stabilizing the load), placing the tarp on top of the hammock, and tightening the tree straps at the outside left and right. Then I need to place my food bag on the panel and tighten those straps down. Then I need to place my ditty bag and poncho on the panel and tighten those straps down (though, if it looks like rain, the poncho goes under the shock cord at the top of the panel for easy access). Then any clothing that I feel I might need during the day goes under the shock cord at the top of the panel.

It sounds easy, but fiddling with slippery silnylon sacks and polyester strapping when you're half-awake Before Coffee is more difficult than it sounds. So, it takes me ~15 to 20 minutes more than it would with a single-bag solution. YMMV there, though.

Also, I agree that you're going to gain pack weight with a modular system. The majority of a pack's weight isn't in the fabric that it's made out of; at most, you're looking at ~1 square yard of fabric. The difference between 30d sil and 1,000d CORDURA is going to be ~9.4 oz at that amount. The real killers on pack weight are all of the accoutrements associated with it: the foam in the waist belt and shoulder straps, the extra webbing for attachment points, heavier buckles, a frame, zippers, closure methods, etc., etc., etc. So, the attachments that you're looking at for this one might add a significant fraction of the total pack's weight, when it comes on down to it.

If that's worth it to you, then go for it! I'm pretty happy with my pack for heavier/bulkier loads, but I've finally gotten my 3-season gear down to where a week will fit in a ~40L pack with no real concerns, and my base weight is under 9 lbs before the pack. So, I can now design a pack around the idea of one big pocket for the majority of my stuff and a couple of smaller attachment points for immediate-need items. It'll save me time and hassle on-trail, which is really important to me on longer days–I'm not a particularly fast hiker, so efficiency trumps everything else.

This thread reminded me of the Orbiter pack I came across recently from Wanderlust Equipment:
http://wanderlust-equipment.com/products/orbiter-pack/

Thanks, that thing is awesome. Now to see if I can scrounge up 29,800 yen somewhere! ha. ($300… so yeah, thanks but no)

That's one approach to the idea, and I like it. I'd prob want a flap at the bottom to support the pack liner from sliding out. And it is a 2-trick pony, but looks like it does those tricks pretty well.

Here's a Zimmerbuilt pack that you might find interesting, http://www.zimmerbuilt.com/dry-bag-hauler—dusi.html. I have a Dana Designs (now Mystery Ranch I believe) pack that was very similar but had two vertical long pockets on the front of the pack. I'm really uptight about weight distribution and getting things to just sit sturdy and right on my back so it isn't my favorite in general. I could see it being applicable in certain situations though. I've also seen old external frames packed up in a modular way too.

I thought I've seen this before, about 1/4 of the page down "Debbie" is wearing something like you're talking about.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=43671

Yep, that's a Luxurylite. A similar, more minimalist approach is Daryl Daryl's MYOG pack frame, though he uses a large very light bag to hang off the frame and contain the gear:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=43311

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=40531

If you plan to hang dry sacks of the S2S type from a frame I see at least two problems there.
First , with the content bouncing up and down as you walk there will be a lot of stress put on the roll top part and the bottom stitching (I see a trail of gear bits behind you…)
Second , the weight you might save will be negated by extra energy needed to compensate for the bags jiggling about.
Another problem is that if you are not extra careful with packing any sharpish object will work its way through the fabric. (again to do with rubbing ,kinetic energy and all of that)
Now if you secure the bags (via straps) so that they don't move, you end up with a similar weight to a conventional LW main pack compartment and slower to use too because of doing/undoing those straps.
Now Rick, your challenge is to prove me wrong.
That last comment was meant as an incentive for you to make it work

Rick,

This pack has a “partially modular” feel to it.

here

Franco: that's the hope anyway (to prove you wrong, but not for the sake of it!). Your critique of the idea is mine as well right now.

Daryl: I'd seen that, I think following it helped get some of my gears spinning on this idea. In fact, I think I watched that video, then started hacking up a camelbak (see OP).

I don't see mesh and twist-ties being a long-lasting endeavor or the approach I'd take for more than a few pounds (I get he did 4,000 miles with his, I don't often go out with a few pounds max load). It's an interesting fastpacking rig though.

Rick, your idea is a good one, but it has been done by at least 2 major manufacturers. Granted, they are military systems and designed for abuse (so they are heavy). I have done three tours overseas and seen many modular systems (which is essentially what you are referring to). On my last tour I had 14 different pouches or bags that got swapped out onto 1 'load bearing system' depending on the mission. I have seen many molle variants that do this, but molle is hard to work with for the normal backpacker (but it is what most militaries use, they just swap pouches on the outsides of a bag).

The 2 major brands for this kind of system are Kifaru and Granite Gear (which surprises me that you haven't mentioned their system since they are also an ultralight manufacturer). If you want examples of pouches or attachment systems I would suggest you go to an Army or Marine base and find the bar that the SF operators hang out at and ask them to show you their bags. They are normally gear junkies / geardo's / or gear queers (so am I, though) and will probably offer assistance.

http://www.highcalibergear.com/site/granite-tactical-gear-chief-flatbed-with-reversible-flap.html
http://www.granitegearstore.com/CHIEF-FLATBED-Without-Flap-Berry-P173C58.aspx
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2010/09/01/gtg-chief-flatbed-getting-the-nod-from-the-air-force/
http://store.kifaru.net/duplex-platform-frame-and-suspension-p8.aspx
http://specopstech.com/osc/product_info.php?cPath=146_161_247&products_id=1946&page=gov (the internal pouch system on this bag would contain excellent ideas for you)
http://www.hillpeoplegear.com (they don't offer exactly the same system as kifaru or granite gear, but I have seen there bags have up to 3 additional bags oriented on them in a very secure manner.)

The molle mac pack looks ridiculous in comparison to the equipment I have carried, so I wouldn't suggest it.

The Nice system from Mystery Ranch is a good frame (especially for wearing ballistic vests) but I don't think their system will accommodate what you are looking for and I wasn't impressed with the modularity compared to some of the other systems mentioned above.

These systems are incredibly expensive, but that is because they are incredibly durable and only intended for military use. Don't let their price discourage you, use the design's to guide you.

Franco, you are wrong, these systems are incredibly secure, user friendly (with the right molle attachment device), easily compressed, easily balanced, and can be protective of the bag they are carrying. The two systems mentioned above and several variants are used by U.S. SF/Recon/SEALs operators all over the world in extreme situations and environments.

Joe at zpacks is making me a pouch to fit some of my molle equipment now, for a mission. He is using grosgrain as the PALS webbing. I will let you know if it is effective. If it is I would use a seamstress company like his to give advice on making the design lightweight and durable.

I would recommend granite gears compressible dry bags as they are incredibly durable and light. I had a couple on my last tour and they held up fine (which means they will be able to handle anything you do with them on the outside of a pack).

I have only gotten into ultralight in the last year. I did because I carry all of the equipment for my wife, daughter and I when we go backpacking. This includes 2 packrafts, 3 life vests, 2 paddles, a 70 m climbing rope, 3 harnesses, anchor equipment, fishing poles and gear, general camping supplies, and the cloudburst tarptent for a total of only 55 lbs (including 3 days of food and fuel). This weight used to be around 100 lbs, (judging by my old gear lists as I swapped equipment). So I greatly appreciate what backpacking light has taught me to do. I hope this information serves you well and if you do come up with a light weight modular system, let me know as I would be intrigued.

I had also run across this in the past and managed to find it again this morning. It seems similar to your desire, but has some good methods for attching the equipment.

Joe,

You deserve the "best supporting poster" statue for your response. Makes me want to post something and just ask for your response.

Daryl, I'm just getting used to recognizing people who post on here, so I'm not sure if your being sarcastic or appreciative? But, I'll take it as supportive.

I meant my suggestions and response to be completely supportive, expecially because with all of my varied equipment, it would be nice to be able to use a lightweight system similar to the one I had overseas. So I don't have to dig out components when I won't need them. In fact, I have been looking at packs for a while because I haven't replaced my 12 y/o Gregory Reality yet and it is 5 lbs of my weight.

I wouldn't want my comments on just anything, though. I tend to read these late at night and loose any sense of., well… 'gentleness'. Not to mention my experience is not in the ultralight world, although I do have considerable 'survival' training/experience.

Also, I remembered that I saw another system that might be useful in your designs. It is a frame with interchangeable bags. Quite impressive actually. You may be able to use some of their concepts as well. It is the Bootlegger system from Boreas Gear.
http://boreasgear.com/products/bootlegger/

I truly meant the info as supportive and really do wish you the best of luck. Nothing I have meantioned wouuld be eeasily used or converted by ultralighters, but the concepts and attachments systems seem golden. Good luck.

"Franco, you are wrong, these systems are incredibly secure, user friendly (with the right molle attachment device), easily compressed, easily balanced, and can be protective of the bag they are carrying."

My comments were about the exact way Rick intended to do his modular pack version, not the general idea nor the Molle frame nor the LuxuryLite one either for that matter.
I happen to have several S2S Ultrasil stuff sacks and no I would not use those outside the pack, matter of fact you need to be carefull with them INSIDE the pack.
(as a reminder Rick is aiming for a 15oz or so pack (frame and bags) and that is why neither Granite Gear nor Kifaru are discussed here…)

Might help to read how Bruce Warren (LuxuryLite) explains the difference between his pack and the Molle frame :
The StackPack is the only ultralight (2.25lbs) external frame backpack on the market. It is not designed to replace the classic external frame load hauler… the 10lb military MOLLE is great for that (scroll to the bottom of this page). The StackPack mission is carrying 30 lbs for ultralight hiking on overnight trips

The point here is that Bruce is not saying "my pack works because it is a modular pack like the Molle" rather (from other comments) because the way he designed his frame and his pockets.

Sounds like sincere appreciation from Daryl.

He's a good guy… well seems like a good guy from his posts. Never met him.

Kelty just came out with a new "modular" pack

Pk50

Worth a look

That Kelty will be too heavy for the OP. Kelty tried the modular thing before with the Satori series back in the late '90s/ early aughts.

I haven't used the MOLLE-USGI medium (external) frame rucksack since initial training. In fact, in 3 tours overseas, I've never seen anyone use it for missions. It sucks for comfort, speed, and mobility. By MOLLE, I meant, more specifically the PALS webbing that is used for attachment of components, since that is one of the problems he specifically mentioned. Most people don't know what 'PALS' means and generally think 'molle' is referring to the webbing (which it doesn't), as you pointed out.

Although, I felt like his 'floating daisy chain' idea would work, I figured it could only be for larger bags. If you had lot of little bags like a ditty bag (personal hygiene), stove bag, cooking utensils, fishing kit (since he canoes, I assume he fishes), etc. you would have to have a different system, like PALS.
I had read the StackPack website. I didn't comment on it because I don't have experience with it. It seems like a generally good idea, but didn't seem to fit Rick's wants. That is why the discussion seemed to continue, right?

I am quite aware that the Kifaru & Granite Gear system are heavy, I carried them. It seems that Rick is willing to make, and be creative with the design of a system. Rick also uses the term 'framesheet' and none of his concepts included an external frame. Which is why I mentioned Kifaru.

I think you are caught up on the idea that I basically said you were wrong and didn't try to look the thoughts I was trying to portray. I, in no way, meant to be offensive. I just feel that Rick's idea could easily work and didn't want him discouraged.
The Kifaru AG Platform Frame And Suspension
http://store.kifaru.net/ag-platform-frame-and-suspension-p134.aspx
has a framesheet that I think (once removed from the heavy cordura) would only weigh in around 8-9 oz. It is also a full length, comfortable and load transferring, which the cut away camelbak is not. You might, now, be able to see how you could swap the cordura for cuben, the nylon webbing for grosgrain, and replace the waist and shoulder straps with mess to get a full attachment system for under 13-15 oz (that was my estimate). That is why I absolutely felt that their system should be discussed. Exact weights of Kifaru's components are unknown, since I couldn't find them online. The weight of that framesheet is only a guess (based on personal handling of it) on my part, but that is why I threw the idea out there.