Cold weather cooking – stove choices

[Nick Gatel]

MSR stoves work much better in snow than a Svea. Trust me, I've been there.

[Tipi Walter]

The mighty MSR folks in their wisdom have DISCONTINUED the Simmerlite stove and so probably the best and maybe lightest white gas stove on the market is now history (although some are still around to buy). What is MSR thinking? Who could know. Companies often deep six their best stuff and lose a boatload of customers (think old North Face tents).

I've used between 3 and 4 Svea 123's over the last 30 years and gotta say when compared to a Mt Research Safety model the Svea has many drawbacks, which I won't list here. It's not the priming blasting fireball of the Svea which I'm talking about either.

Example—you are cooking with the Svea and the tiny fuel tank runs out midway. So, you wait a few minutes for the housing to cool and then carefully pour your fuel into the tiny hole of the stove—don't waste a drop! The stove of course is still warm (and your food is getting cold). You prime it again and light. KA-BOOM! The still-warm stove gas-ifies the priming fuel and you get a nice big fireball—no need to shave for a couple more weeks.

Example—one of the nail-like support prongs falls out and is lost—a fairly common occurrence. You need all 3 to support a pot. So, you fashion a couple from bent nails at home. These get easily lost in the dirt on your next trip. The wonderful little Svea.

[Larry De La Briandais]

This is NOT directed at anyone specific. I've used a whisperlite for many, many years and never had a problem when it would flare up. No one really leans over their stove when lighting it, do they? I don't lean over my canister stove even though it has never flared. I expect the flare up and it is never a problem. Now, I don't use my stove in or near my tent. I wouldn't use a WG stove in a tent. Otherwise I don't understand the problem.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Nick

> I keep reading about the field failures and taking out filters and replacing them
> with toilet paper,
A shade unfair. The 'light Korean/Chinese canister stoves' are actually very good, but they are designed for use as uprights. As such, they are most excellently reliable. You should also note that the 'Western' company stoves are mostly made by the Chinese and Korean companies anyhow – with the exception of Primus who get theirs made in Estonia. But their engineering is a bit rough in comparison, imho.

The filter business is because I converted an UPRIGHT stove into a REMOTE stove. That changed things a bit. When used as they were designed, there are no problems. By the way, the tissue paper filter has now gone, replaced by a punched disk of filter paper. That works very well.

'Field failures' – well, first of all it was/is a BETA test, designed to find everything it could. There were a few 'user-training' issues which were NOT failures, there was one damaged O-ring, and one very early problem with a filler cord. Only the damaged O-ring could be considered an actual failure, and I/we have no idea how it got damaged. With the O-ring replaced the stove is now running fine. Incidentally, a white gas stove can have exactly the same problem with the O-ring. It is a good idea to carry spares and to check them.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Paul

> I'm waiting for at least the second iteration of the Caffin stove before wanting one
> of those.
Chuckle. R&D is NEVER that simple.

The model which went into beta-test was V13(.1) of the 4th major generation (or was it the 5th?). That had the FMS-116T burner, and there were 10 of those. Then I switched to the FMS-300 burner around V13.3. The current model is V14.2 . The previous major generations were interesting (and worked) but were not good enough for release.

So 'second iteration' is not a very good description!

I decided to make 100 stoves, and bought that many FMS-300 burners. Most of those are gone. Will I make any more after all the current batch of burners are gone? Don't know.

Cheers
PS: currently rebuilding my CNC machine, so there's a small delay anyhow.

[David Drake]

Hi Roger,
Are you saying replacing the sintered brass filter is unnecessary running the FMS 300T as intended (upright and using good-quality canister like Snowpeak)? I just got one and was considering replacing the filter using your method, but would prefer to leave it as-is. Obviously, I would also prefer no field failures.
Apologies to the OP for the slight thread drift.

[James Marco]

Well, I never had a problem with my SVEA. It does take a bit of attention to the weather when filling it, though. A full tank will last about 70-80 minutes on high. About 2-3 hours on medium…say around 2000BTU. It will run about 4 hours on low.

In cold weather I used it for heating my pup tent out on the ice while ice fishing. You need fairly good ventilation and a small piece of plywood, but compared to the ice auger, that was the least of our problems. -20F was the problem. The damn tip-ups were constantly freezing. We had to drop back to 5 between the two of us just to keep them ladled out.

Anyway, I picked up a midi-pump around then. With 3 strokes I could prime the stove without pouring fuel on it. I would turn it off to regulate the amount of flame while priming, though if you ignored it it often hit 2 feet tall. I cannot imagine anyone running out of fuel in the middle of a meal. I cooked for 8 people on it one morning (bacon, eggs and toast, two pots of coffee, 1 for tea/cocoa) and only used about 2-1/2 to 3oz.

Rugged as hell. My brother dropped an armload of firewood on it one time. When I got back I just pinched the brass around the pot stand where it had opened up and straightened out the wind screen.

[JP]

–

[Jerry Adams]

"I've used a whisperlite for many, many years and never had a problem when it would flare up."

I've used a whisperlite for a few months worth of backpacking in total. I've singed my eyebrows a couple times, but I acknowledge I wasn't being careful enough. Also, once it clogged and I had to take it apart in the field, but got it to work. WG is dirty fuel, gums up,…

Starting 10 years ago, I've use upright canister stoves a few 100 days worth and never singed my eyebrows. The Exponent F1 developed a leak between stove and canister when I didn't tighten it really good, which caused a flame-up, but I just blew it out and tightened more. A couple times it leaked all the fuel when it got really cold overnight. But all this was a defect in that one stove. I had one canister that leaked when I removed stove, so I just left the stove on until I used it up.

Canisters are easier to use and lighter. Temperatures below 25 F or so require tricks or inverted, and below 0 F (?) WG becomes a better solution.

[Bob Gross]

"What is MSR thinking?"

If a stove is too good and reliable, then MSR won't be selling them anymore stoves. They would rather see you going back to buy a new stove every two or three years.

–B.G.–

[Bob Gross]

"MSR XGK EX stove"

I've had quite a few MSR stoves like this. The old model G, old model GK, old model XGK, and lastly the model XGK-II. I have not yet owned any XGK-EX. This adds up to about eight or so stoves.

First of all, most of these white gas stoves that we're talking about are so-called plate roarer stoves. They tend to be high in efficiency, high in heat, a little noisy due to the plate during operation, and a little complex in construction. A different type would be a Simmerlite (no plate). It helps if you have high mechanical aptitude.

For many of us, white gasoline is the best fuel for winter use. Kerosene can be hotter in efficiency, but it doesn't vaporize quite the same way.

When I am doing anything in severe winter conditions, I will take my XGK-II. I would take the XGK-EX if I had one, but that will be the next stove. The -EX is not cheap. With these stoves, you really want to play with it for a while and learn its habits. Once you've used it for several days in a row, you will know exactly how much fuel to use in priming. I once got so practiced that I could prime it with about five drops of fuel. I recommend placing the stove and fuel tank on a piece of Masonite about 10 inches square. That keeps it insulated from snow, and it gives it a stable base.

If I am going in less severe winter conditions, like spring snow, then I will take a Simmerlite since it is lighter in weight. Once I get consistently above freezing, then I will take some butane canister stove running butane blend. Once it gets nicer than that, I will take Esbit for boiling, or possibly alcohol.

–B.G.–

[Paul Magnanti]

"Why would someone use the MSR XGK EX stove versus what most everyone else is mentioning?"

Because it is heavier, bulkier, more $$$$ and overkill for what most of us are doing.

I am sure a Toyota Landcruiser with burly shocks and fat tires is superior to my 2005 Kia Sorento 4WD if I was going on a safari or crossing the Sahara. Since I merely driving up rough washboard dirt roads in Utah or snowy roads in Colorado, my Kia works for me.

Glad you need a stove to -40F. I am happy with -10 or so for my bragging rights. ;)

I already have two WG backpacking stoves. Frankly, I only need one (one was a gift, the MSR whisperlite needs a little TLC right now and I've been too lazy to strip it and put it back together..it is 16 yrs old). Do I need a third stove?

[Tipi Walter]

James Marco—
"I cannot imagine anyone running out of fuel in the middle of a meal"

After a couple thousand meals with the Svea, it will happen more often than expected. Why? Because in order to be sure the tank has enough fuel for Meal #3 or Meal #4 or #5 or #7 you have to open up the tank and refill before cooking. Why? Because the stove is so heavy it's hard to accurately determine by holding and/or sloshing if you have enough fuel in the tank for the next 10 or 15 minutes of cooking. There is of course no fuel gauge.

And unless you have a funnel or a fuel bottle pour spout—and not just the standard bottle lid—getting fuel directly into the tiny hole of the Svea from a tilted fuel bottle usually results in some fuel spill and loss. Not good. Never good. And without the priming pump, there is always excessive fuel waste when priming unless you use an eyedropper to fill the trough or god help you go with a proprietary "fuel paste" to place in the priming trough. Enough!!

Ah, the MSR on the other hand has a 22oz or 32oz fuel bottle which lasts 8 or 9 days on a butt cold winter trip or 17 days on a regular trip before needing refilling.

[JP]

–

[Phillip Asby]

great input as usual.

I'm in NC so high teens and low 20s is typically about the lower limit – but in scouts we do most of our camping in shoulder seasons and winter (summer is camps, etc…) so I've had my canister get shaky several times.

I did not like the Brunton Bantam I had – pretty clunky on several levels so I had about given up on white gas altogether… but I might be convinced otherwise – have my eye on the now discontinued Primus Express Lander which seems light and pretty simple.

I may order a Kovea Spider just to check it out – I admit I have a stove problem… in fact the "fiddle" factor of a white gas stove sort of appeals to me – as does the brass elegance in design/function of the SVEA 123 – would really like one of those and/or a Coleman 533/442.

[Bob Gross]

"There is of course no fuel gauge."

That's what this country needs, a nickel cigar and a fuel gauge on a stove!

That will be my platform for the next election.

"go with a proprietary "fuel paste" to place in the priming trough"

I had good luck with Mauze Fire Ribbon back in the early days when I used a stove of that type. Once I learned exactly how to prime the XGK, then I didn't need the stuff anymore.

–B.G.–

[Jerry Adams]

"I'm in NC so high teens and low 20s is typically about the lower limit – but in scouts we do most of our camping in shoulder seasons and winter (summer is camps, etc…) so I've had my canister get shaky several times."

Same here – low 20s

Have shallow container for water, or plastic lid that fits over bottom of canister is really slick.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi David

> Are you saying replacing the sintered brass filter is unnecessary running the
> FMS 300T as intended (upright and using good-quality canister like Snowpeak)?
Correct. Any dirt which might be in the canister stays at the bottom.

Cheers

[M G]

"> Are you saying replacing the sintered brass filter is unnecessary running the
> FMS 300T as intended (upright and using good-quality canister like Snowpeak)?
Correct. Any dirt which might be in the canister stays at the bottom."

This has been my experience so far. I really like the stove, it's very efficient. Surprisingly stable even with wide diameter pots given the small size. I've been using it since last spring. Almost a year. Probably close to 30 nights out. No clogs or performance issues yet. Fingers crossed it stays that way.

[USA Duane Hall]

Bob, I like the old MSR stoves, I have a total of about 24 in my stove collection, including more modern stoves like a Dragonfly from 1999, many multiples, some slight differences within the model, all very loud except the WL's and 600. My shortened beard over the winter shows my sometimes forgotten regard for fire. :)
Duane

[Nick Gatel]

Hi Nick

> I keep reading about the field failures and taking out filters and replacing them
> with toilet paper,
A shade unfair. The 'light Korean/Chinese canister stoves' are actually very good, but they are designed for use as uprights.

---

Perhaps. I apologize.

I only use MSR or Snow Peak canisters. Perhaps they have better quality control with their fuel (whoever produces the canisters for them).

I used my "upright" only WindPro (version 1) only in the inverted position with nary a problem. I didn't do the hose modification and it was a bit of a pain to invert the canister, so I gave it to a friend and bought a WindPro II. Not a single problem with the II either and I only run it in liquid mode.

The design is proven (basically a Whisperlite unit) and it is made in the USA. A bit heavier than the Korean/Chinese stoves, but I trust MSR stoves. A stove failure in summer is not a big deal — it winter it is.

When I expect really bad weather (lots of snow and wind) I am still taking the DragonFly or WhisperLite. Only because I trust them and the WindPro II hasn't earned by complete confidence as a serious winter gas stove yet.

[Tipi Walter]

Of course everyone probably knows about these—

http://www.pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/57053282

http://www.pbase.com/mad_monte1/_retro_outdoor_gear&page=all

[Nick Gatel]

As I said earlier, not the greatest winter stove but I never had a problem getting to work in cold weather.

I have owned two of them for over 40 years. One is dedicated to a Sigg Tourist set and the other for all other trips where large pots are not needed, which is most of the time.

I have replaced several wicks and many cap gaskets (I have a drawer full of them). Never needed to replace the valve graphite packing but I have some, somewhere in the garage.

Metaphorically I can get these to work in my sleep. With experience they are great stoves.

Regarding running out of fuel. My routine is to fill the stove base every morning before cooking breakfast. I always carried a small plastic funnel to fill the tank. At one time Sigg made a bottle cap with a spout. I bought one but never used it. It is probably in the garage somewhere. I strained the white gas at home from the gallon can. When I did long trips requiring obtaining fuel in town, I brought a small metal funnel with a fine mesh screen to pour into the stove tank from the fuel bottle. In those days bulk Blazo fuel was sold in every Chevron or Standard station. Cost was about 35 cents a gallon and I could fill my two fuel bottles for about 10 cents. Most of the time the station attendant would just give me the fuel.

Never lost a pot support.

I officially retired the Sveas in 2008, but take them once or twice a year on trips, just for nostalgia sake.

[Bob Gross]

Nick, have you ever considered leading guided tours of your garage?

–B.G.–

[James Marco]

Yeah, I have used a SVEA for almost 40 years (boy it doesn't seem that long.) Anyway, when I traded for some flies I had tied, I got a fuel bottle and a pair of caps from Optimus. The one had a small tube for filling and a hole in the back for stopping the flow. I always made it a practice to fill after every use. In warmer weather, I didn't bring the pump. Rather, I used the tube, about the size of a bic pen cartridge, to pour it into the so called "spirit cup." I never had to prime more than was needed once I got used to it (takes four or five uses.) After I switched to a coke bottle, I would just strip some 12ga/10ga wire and insert it tightly into a spare top use the vinal casing as a fill tube. I tried to glue and epoxy it, but that failed after several weeks, so the mechanical seal actually worked better.

The Midi pump really doesn't save fuel because it doesn't really fill the cup. When it is leaking down the side, it is a whole bunch easier to light. While lit, I would turn the valve off. As the flame died off, ie, till it was almost burned out, turn it on to run. I never used the fire paste.

Generally it burns about an ounce per day, unless you are melting snow. 1L in the morning, 1L at night with about 5-7 minutes of "simmer". A 16 floz bottle only weighs about 14-1/2 ounces which is enough for just about 16 days…closer to 7/8oz per day. Since the fuel bottle was used for both priming and cooking, that was already figured.

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