Confusing info about Cap 4 vs R1

I really doubt that is correct unless they changed the cap4 fabric just now.
Cap4 is thinner than the R1. Don't know if the Piton or R1 is warmer, seemed similar to me but only owned an R1. I think the Piton was a little less breathable and therefore perhaps more as outer use, not sure.

From what you describe as your needs the Cap 4 is the one you want for active use.
http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-capilene-4-baselayer-expedition-weight-quarter-zip-hoody?p=43666-0

I have several grid fleece hoodies of the same thickness, for me definitely more useful as an active mid layer or very cold base layer.

I've only tried the Cap 4 and R1. In my experience, the Cap 4 is too warm for hiking unless it's under 20F. I've never been out when it's cold enough for the R1. R1 is definitely warmer.

I've heard back again from the customer service guy. He definitely means the newest iteration of both pieces:

Yes It has been my experience that the new Cap 4 is slower drying than the newest R1. I have found that in cold environments with low levels of activity the Cap 4 is great, but for high exertion, high perspiration in cold environments I’ll take the R1 any day. This is just my personal preference though, and the truth is the two are extremely close in warmth, dry time, breathability, etc. Having used both I just think the R1 performs a little better for those environments.

A lot of the benefit for the R1 seems to stem from the drying speed… I don't sweat much, so wetting out from perspiration is not my biggest concern.. hence I think I save my pennies and buy the Cap4?

Agree with Jeff above, for me 0C would be still too warm for the cap 4 hoodies. I use them as a base layer from -5 to -15C etc.
R1 might be an option for me if temps fall below -15 to -20C.

Something else to consider between the cap 4 and r1 as well is the zipper placement. The offset zippers drive me insane for some reason, sold off my r1 and nwalpine hoody because of them. I since replaced the items with the cap 4 hoody and have been real happy with it. It gets used in a broader range of temps then the r1, is lighter, the material feels stretchier, and is just overally a more comfortable layer for me.

Hmmm, interesting. From just handling the material of the two I feel the R1 would be warmer overall.

Now in a static environment, or with a wind shell, the cap4 could indeed be warmer since it has more dead air space thanks to larger channels. However on the move it feels much more drafty than the R1…but my cap4 is the past season so if there was a change that may account for the rep's comments.

Here's a recent update from outdoorgear lab dated 30 Mar 15, though the comparison of Cap4 with actual R1 is down at the bottom. Condensed version: very similar characteristics but Cap4 fabric starts to pile faster with abrasion.

http://outdoorgearlab.com/Long-Underwear-Reviews/Patagonia-Capilene-4-Expedition-Weight-1-4-Zip-Hoody

Of course these are skiers. Perhaps the durability if wearing Cap4 vs. RI under pack straps daily could swing it to R1.

ADD: not seeing thicker baselayers on their website … just cap 1 and 2. Redesign?

the fabrics are similar (Polartec Powerdry), but the weight of the fabric is very different- the R1 uses a 6.8 oz/yd material, the Cap 4 uses a 3.8 oz/yd material; the R1 is without any shadow of a doubt warmer (and heavier)

I use my Cap 4 hoody as a mid layer (over a very light merino t-shirt) when hiking in wet, cool conditions; I use it as a base layer in cold temps snowshoeing/skiing/running

the R1 sees much less use than the Cap 4 (mostly reserved for the very coldest days)

deleted

The R1 is without a shadow of a doubt warmer than the Cap4. The Cap 4 dumps heat readily, but dries surprisingly slowly compared to the R1. The R1 is pretty permeable to air too, but not nearly to the extent of the Cap4.

I wear the R1 only in subfreezing temperatures. From 30°F to -14°F this layer has kept me comfortable backpacking.

The Cap4 hoody hasn't done anything for me. In conditions where I like the Cap4, I am happier with the lighter quarter zip hoodless one, as I still can wear my windshirt' hood. In that regard, I find the Cap4 to be an excellent shoulder season layer.

Hk,

I lab tested them both on a guarded hot plate; the Cap 4 = .144 Iclo and the R1 = .290 Iclo. In laymen's terms, the R1 = ~2x the warmth of the Cap 4.

.

In true BPL style, in the end after posting this thread I have ended up buying both, although the cap 4 has been since sold (hood not even close to fitting my big head comfortably, and a bit too slim to not look 100% like a ninja)

I'd concur with the 2x measurement.. how the Piton hybrid slots in is a lot more condition dependent, it can either be warmer (even than the R1) while moving due to less airflow and is warmer than the cap 4 in a breeze.. but possibly coldest overall in a completely static environment.

Richard- thanks- that gives perfectly w/ my experience

I've been eyeballing the Piton, but have yet to pull the trigger as a base and/or mid layer w/ a windshirt works so well

A 2x difference in clo would make sense for backpacking. May not make too much difference if activily cross-country skiing or running until it truly got cold enough for an R1. Thanks Richard. I've seen the clo for R1 but not Cap4