Chasing breathability an exercise in futility?

Justin,

"Andy, do you find that the cotton canvas anorak is more breathable than a wind shirt or soft shell?"

I have never used or owned an actual wind shirt or soft shell jacket. (Though I do have and use soft shell pants.) I have a very thin uncoated polyester windbreaker from walmart which I cut the inner mesh liner out of. That's the closest to a wind shirt or soft shell jacket I've tried. The anorak seems more breathable than that. I can also blow air through the anorak easier. Part of the moisture management mechanism of the anorak is that the cotton absorbs the moisture, and the cold, dry air dries the outer layer of the anorak as moisture is absorbed. That's why it only works well in cold, dry conditions.

Do we want to fill our landfills with disposable O2 and DriDucks garments?

For precisely this reason, decades ago many of us did not use a tube tent.

For more rambling on about rain gear…

The Search for the Holy Grail: Waterproof Breathable Rain Gear

Ian, what were the weather conditions other than the 30F temps?

I'll run off and assume it want raining as it was below freezing. I that was the case, why wear a rain shell if it wasn't raining.

Cold humidity in typical PNW conditions is a significant factor. 80% or higher is common unless you are in Eastern Washington and/or the weather is crispy cold and clear. On the west side of the Cascades, we are hiking close to the dew point other than a few weeks of the best summer weather. The bottom line is that there is nowhere for the perspiration to go.

Over dressing adds to the problem. If you feel warm leaving the trailhead parking lot, you're probably over dressed. Don't be afraid to stop and make adjustments to your clothing. I'm a poky hiker and I've hiked with many others who like to head up a trail like a race horse outbid the gate. I have no problem with stopping to tweak a shoelace or get my clothing or other gear right.

Your particular metabolism and physical condition should be considered. I'm a walking garden sprinkler when hiking hard uphill, which exceeds what the most breathable rain gear can handle. Add that to PNW cold humidity, and indeed, there is no truly breathable rain gear. In light rain conditions I often have the choice of getting wet from the light precip or heavy sweat.

Ventilation helps. Not only do I like pit zips, I prefer the Outdoor Research torso zips, that go all the way to the hem. That allows maximum ventilation and helps to eliminate the hot pockets in your rain shell created by your pack harness. I've never seen it mentioned, but the combination of a rain shell plus an internal frame pack harness seals the bottom of your rain shell and creates several sealed areas where the only ventilation possible is through the fabric.

Alternatives? If it isn't raining and you aren't cold, you shouldn't be wearing any shell. If there is cold wind or light sporadic precip, a good breathable windshirt is preferable. Wear only the lightest base layer that will keep you comfortable when walking hard— uphill with a load. Add your windshirt or shell and extra layers as needed for cold level traverses, downhill sections or rest stops.

Adding light gloves or beanie may make you feel warmer when it is chilly rather than a heavier base layer or extra layer.

If you are in conditions where you are wearing rain pants all day, I prefer to wear them with silk weight long johns rather than trying to wear them over nylon pants. Full side zip pants can be vented using the zippers.

Try a poncho. Not only is it vented on the sides, it is free of your pack harness and it covers your pack too, so you don't have the hot pockets and trapped sweat. A typical silnylon poncho is 7 ounces, as light and far less expensive than the lightest breathable rain gear. It can double as emergency shelter and is wonderfully low tech. A simple rinse and air dry is all the maintenance it usually needs. No fretting about DWR and cranky membranes.

Try an umbrella too. If you don't have one, $3 and a trip to any thrift store will get you one to test.

If you are hiking in wet high humidity conditions, spare dry base layers are more weight, but will add to your safety comfort.

If you are getting rain gear recommendations from California or the Rockies, hold your hands over your ears and sing LA LA LA. The Scots are the only outsiders who ubderstand PNW weather :)

A word on soft shells. I like light soft shell pants for cool/cold weather hiking, but the jackets haven't worked for me. They are heavy and expensive and don't provide much insulation and rain protection is minimal. They look good, but really don't give you much more than a denim jacket– just some added DWR. IMHO, a windshirt and a light fleece will deliver more warm and at least as much DWR as a soft shell jacket. Soak your soft shell jacket and you have a heavy mess and you're wet and cold, which is just what you are trying to avoid.

A soft shell jacket will give more abrasion resistance, making them popular with climbers and downhill skiers. Those are more single purpose activities than a hiker dealing with a wide range of conditions over a period of days.

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

Dale,

As to why this jacket, for no other reason that it's what I had with me and I don't own a soft-shell jacket yet. I've been soaked from hiking in a snowstorm so I'm not too hip to playing in the snow with just a wind shirt. Also, my hike started in the 20*s and ended in the high 30*s so there was potential for rain, snow, and a combination of the two.

I was using this example to show that even in sub-freezing temperatures with nothing but a base layer underneath, that I tend to sweat heavily with what I have and that in three season hiking it's even worse. For this particular thread, I was looking for three season ideas and appreciate your input.

Edit: Looks like you added some comments on soft shells after I responded. Received.

"Do we want to fill our landfills with driducks?"

A valid question and I'd agree that the answer should be no.
However, I do not regard them as a disposable item. They are easily repairable in the field or at home, and will last a few years with care. Mine are pocked with dabs of aquaseal from lousy backcasts with weighted salmon flies, and crossed with tape from some larger bushwhacking tears, but overall are still functional. I wonder how many people have a hardshell that has maintained its waterproofness for over 3 years.
(Disclaimer: I mostly poncho tarp, so the driducks don't see year round use)

In no way do I advise hiking with only a windshirt! I advise ALWAYS having some sort of rain gear in your pack whenever you step off the pavement. Even on August day hikes there is a poncho in my pack.

You can wear a windshirt effectively when you have those short light fits of dizzle which DWR can handle, but it's not a substitute for a shell or poncho. Ever.

And yeah, I've gotten plenty wet and cold cross country skiing in snowing conditions. A slick nylon shell with DWR will shed dry snow better than a fleece or sweater. At some point you need a shell, and with activity like cross country, you need LOTS of ventilation. It's easier when it's colder for me. 20F tends to be drier and there's usually not much snow below that (no absolutes). 30F and snowing might as well be raining and near freezing rain is the definition of sucks.

The classic hiking conditions for 3 season PNW weather is something like 45F-50F, dizzling rain for hours, heavy overcast with no opportunity for sun drying, humidity of 85% or higher and surround by equally wet brush and soggy ground. If the sun does come out, you are walking in a steam bath. Pitch your shelter and it becomes a dew trap.

So your title definitely struck a chord. Futile? Nearly. Compromises? Oh yes, in any regard. Of all the testing I have read over the years, ventilation features trump the fabric breathability every time. Having a few square inches of free air flow equals a LOT of small pores in breathable fabric. Add some bellows effect with good wicking clothing and you can move some of the moist air out. But the futility is that there is no "dry" air anywhere in the picture. The best you will do is the cool 85% humidity level air outside your shell. Not much good!

So ventilate, ventilate, ventilate. Don't over dress, wear wicking base layers and carry spares. Hike, get wet, get dry. Repeat :)

" I wonder how many people have a hardshell that has maintained its waterproofness for over 3 years. "
Mine still is (and nearly 10 years old).

there are two basic types of WPB fabrics. Vapor permiable and air permiable.

Vapor permiable jackets have minimal breathability until the humidity inside the jacket gets high. That means you must work up a sweat before the jacket really starts to breath. Most jackets that use this type of fabric have polyurethane membrains. Polyurethane is cheep and lightwieght. Most Gortex type fabrics fall into this catagory. Some of the newest Gortex fbrics might be air permaiable but I haven't yet seen any confirmation of this.

Air permaiable jackets have microscopic holes that allow air to flwo through but still blocks water. Event Neoshell fabrics are both air permiable. These jackets have maximum breathability the instant you put them on. You don't have to work up a sweat to get them to breath. These fabrics have higher breathability rating than polyurethane and but weigh more and cost more.

I don't know which catagory DriDucks falls into and I haven't used them.

If you limit your rain jacket wieght to less than 9 oz you are likely only purchasing jackets with a polyurethane membrane. All will have similar performance.

I have and old gortex packlight, a marmont, and a 12 oz Event jacket. The Event jacket isnoticable more breathable than the others even though it doesn't have pit zips. I have found the breathability is high enough that it doesn't need pit zips. My old gortex amd marmont have pit zips but they don't help a lot and they add weight to the jacket.

So if you wnat a jacket that breaths more than your old one, don't buy another using polyurethane WBP fabric!

My blue one is perfect after 15 years. My red one is perfect after 12 years. Both Goretex of one sort. My yellow one is now over 30 years old, and it delaminated.

–B.G.–

" I wonder how many people have a hardshell that has maintained its waterproofness for over 3 years. "
Mine still is (and nearly 10 years old).

My old Gortex Packlight is at least 15 years old and it doesn't leak although the DWR finish on it fialed a long time ago. Keep in mind the DWR finish does not make the facket waterproof. It's the membrane that is waterproof. not the DWR.

"So if you wnat a jacket that breaths more than your old one, don't buy another using polyurethane WBP fabric!"
That statement is too simple. E.g. NeoShell is PU-based, and most users and independend testers claim it's highly breathable (of course compared to other WP fabrics).

"Keep in mind the DWR finish does not make the facket waterproof. It's the membrane that is waterproof. not the DWR"

Nope. If the DWR fails, the membrane "drowns" and can't breath. The system fails.

As far as ethics? Hikers hug a tree and then trash the environment with their gear technology. It's dumb blindness more than hypocrisy I think. Patagonia has taken it about as far as a manufacturer can, with the offer to collect and recycle the stuff they make, even re-selling the old stuff that is serviceable and encouraging the sale of used gear through venues like eBay.

DriDucks are great for hikers who need occasional rain gear. You hike all day, have a an hour of rain, and it clears up. Or it rains one day in ten. they aren't for bushwhacking or wearing for 12 hours a day. All in all, I don't think the total impact of DriDucks is very big. All the crappy nylon sports clothing pales the entire DriDucks market.

IMHO, most 2.5 layer jackets are disposable after a couple heavy seasons. I've seen scores of used ones with delamination at the neck and shoulders where internal abrasion is high.

I've had very few problems with real failure in fabric gear. Some people trash their gear. I've seen filthy packs with holes in the bottom from throwing them down and or dragging them. Same with clothing– layers of body filth and general dirt, rips and tears, and damaged zippers from continuing to pull on a jammed zipper. Same with tents– probably more so. And sleeping bags. Throw in bad laundering techniques too. The point being that reports of failures may be user error, outright abuse, failure to follow manufacturer's recommendations and general stupidity. Confounding variables indeed!

Please forgive me my heresy, but I'm starting to convert to belief that chasing breathability is an exercise in futility, because we don't actually want the highest breathability. The god commercialization instead does, and I'm afraid that ever higher ratings are achieved by ever thinner membranes. With obvious consequence in durability. But WPB preachers are influential and my faith is weak.

It started years ago when I got the holy grail of WPB, the Paramo Jacket, in my possession. Oh, my lord, it did keep the water out. And hallelujah it breathed to the extent of letting some wind through. And that was it's stumbling block.

I can't deny perspiration for running too hot. That is bound to happen. We are just humans and sometimes sweat naked. Even at freezing temperatures if the act is vigorous enough. Shell is not to blame. Sweat is reaction to overheating and shell just reveals that. Taking jacket off to better vent helps but not infinitely. After slowing down but still with a wet skin, what to do? Don the jacket and close the vents to stop evaporative cooling? This damned coat lets vapor through. Chilling.

Swimming is nice, getting wet is ok, cold or hot is nasty. The real merit of a shell jacket is the ability to separate the warm and the cold water. More than maximum breathability, maybe the need is adjustability in breathability. Open vents, close vents.

For general comfort and for some drying even when full zipped up the fabric perhaps should breathe, but only to a limited amount. And to zip ventilate locally but cool globally the preference is baggy cut and good underwear. And that's another one of my heresies, you know that miraclous fibre. But maybe another time another thread.

Disclaimer:

As English is not my native tongue – and I'm no poet even in Finnish – I'm sure to set some words wrong. My purpose is not to blaspheme a faith in higher power but to question the religious belief on the bless of fabric breathability.

I'm guessing the commentary here about Dri Ducks has been restricted, so far, to the Ultra Light 2 line ($20), yes? Which we all agree is fragile. But there are other, more durable lines, such as Trail Pac 2 (for +$6-10) and Dura Lite 3 (for +$25), the All Sport, and perhaps others. Are the hardier Frog Toggs also very breathable? Would they solve some of the durability issues?

I can understand you perfectly well. Your English is better than that of most Americans. And you make a good point. I'm moving away from WPB gear, because it never does what you need it to at the right times. I'm not sure what the ultimate solution will be, but if hairless apes intend to continue going out in the frigid wilderness, the technology leaves a lot to be desired.

> convert to belief that chasing breathability is an exercise in futility,
Indeed, very true.

Someone commented earlier that membranes only transport moisture when the interior humidity exceeds the exterior. This is correct. Under many conditions (like when it is damp outside) this means the inside has to be around 100% rH. Combine this with the cold exterior temps and the inevitable result is that you will have lots of condensation inside. You get wet.

The solution to all this is to travel while wearing minimal clothing. You will still sweat, but it won't accumulate nearly as much. When you stop, you allow a couple of minutes to cool down, then add dry layers. If there is wind, use a windshirt if needed – and use the wind to stay cool.

This is not what all the marketing spin wants you to believe. Wickable underlayers, softshells, membranes, etc: buy, buy, buy. But we know about the spin doctors and their 'guaranteed to keep you dry' lies.

Cheers

"Keep in mind the DWR finish does not make the jacket waterproof. It's the membrane that is waterproof. not the DWR"

"Nope. If the DWR fails, the membrane "drowns" and can't breath. The system fails. "

Yes the fabric will stop breathing when the DWR fails. However it is still waterproof. The rain cannot penetrate the membrane. However since the fabric has stopped breathing, condensation inside the jacket will occur. And the condensation may make people think that the jacket is leaking.

Once condensation starts you only have two ways to stay warm. Get out of the rain or hike slower so you sweet less.

the Last time I used my old gortex jacket the DWR coating failed withing an hour of starting my hike. 8 hours later at 9,000 feet it was still raining and I was dry and setting up camp. I managed to stay dry by hiking slower so I didn't sweet much and opening up the pit zips.

Once condensation starts you only have two ways to stay warm. Get out of the rain or hike slower so you sweet less.

"So if you want a jacket that breaths more than your old one, don't buy another using polyurethane WBP fabric!"

"That statement is too simple. E.g. NeoShell is PU-based, and most users and independent testers claim it's highly breathable (of course compared to other WP fabrics)."

true the Neoshell is PU-based but the PU-membrane is not a continuous film as it is in all other fabrics. Neoshell is made by spraying Up fibers onto the fabric. The PU-fibers are oriented randomly resulting in porous PU membrane thats works in a way similar to Event. Air can pass through the membrane while all other PU based WPB fabrics block air flow.

"Someone commented earlier that membranes only transport moisture when the interior humidity exceeds the exterior. This is correct. "
Roger, it doesn't happen often, but now I have to disagree. Even when it's outside more humid then inside, membranes can still transport moisture outside as long as the vapour pressure gradient (influeced by both humidity and temperature) remains positive from inside to outside.

"true the Neoshell is PU-based but the PU-membrane is not a continuous film as it is in all other fabrics."
Again: too simple.
Indeed, most PU-membranea use a continuous, hydrophilic film. However, for decades now, there are also porous PU-coatings or -membranes. They were/are not AP as the pore size was/is inconsistent. These days, they know how to get coatings or membranes with consistent pores, getting also AP.

Hi Woubeir

> membranes can still transport moisture outside as long as the vapour pressure
> gradient (influeced by both humidity and temperature) remains positive from inside
> to outside.

True: I oversimplified. I stand corrected.

I assumed that the temperature at the inside surface of the membrane would be very similar to the temperature on the outside surface of the membrane. Under most conditions, this is very close to what happens. I should have stated this explicitely.

Cheers

Hi Alpo,

Were you saying that the Paramo jacket breathed too much and too well, and thus you got too chilled from the synthetic flash dry effect?

I wonder if a Merino-synthetic baselayer like Rab MeCo would help with that?

I know there are some strong opinions on wool, both for and against the warmth when wet issue, but my personal experience says that it's slightly or somewhat warmer while wet, as compared to most other fabrics, but i've also have come to prefer wool-synthetic blends for various reasons (like MeCo).

Btw, i agree with the other poster that your English is better than a lot of Americans' English.