UL positive feedback system

I believe Ray Jardine comments about this way back when…..

Have you read this?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/decision_making_lightweight_pack.html#.Uqy1MJFd0m0

It's definitely a cascading effect. People often remark on here that the numbers are arbitrary (and that we talk too much about gear) but I can say that the increased distances I can hike with my lighter backpack are not.

And to make Ian's example of light weight = more miles more explicit:

light weight – more miles – fewer days between resupplies – less food weight – more miles – wash, rinse, repeat.

And then's there's the shorter cycle of less weight – work less – sweat less – carry less water – back to less weight

Depending on the setting, the great mobility can let you get out of a high-elevation stretch or otherwise find a good setting to camp in which your lightweight shelter and sleep system work well.

it sounds like a uncontrolled feedback loop…

I leave this as a warning for those who come to this website in the future and find no one here. We all started down the UL path and kept getting lighter and lighter until we ceased to exist!! There is a dark side to carrying less weight on your back. We leave this here as a written record of how it all went wrong. Read with extreme caution!

Of course there's positive feedback, just look for the drool ha ha ha. Pavlov reference. Sorry, let's get serious.

** A light system produces "warmth" or more "warmth"?—just because you can move faster? Warmth in the winter comes with more weight, period. Heavier bag, beefier pad, gloves–hats–parkas–more fuel, etc.

** Ergo a light sleep system and light clothing may look good on the gear list or spreadsheet but may be cursed in real world conditions at -10F. In fact, the biggest winter problem I see with backpackers is their unwillingness to carry enough clothing and enough bedding/pad. It reminds me of Jordan's Arctic Trek when he had to wear his foam sleeping pad around his torso for warmth as he hiked. Why not just carry some extra fleece and merino?

** More miles? This seems to be an UL mantra and part of the fast and light mindset. Seven mile days are perfectly acceptable. What's the rush?

** "Fewer days between resupplies" is to me the biggest drawback of a light kit. I just left a town and cars and folding money and traffic and roads to go into the woods so why the heck would I want to interrupt my trip with near constant resupplies? So, I carry more food weight and stay out longer w/o interruption.

** You say you have better site selection because you can do more miles to find a site but to me this means a UL kit dictates camp selection, a negatory in my opinion. Maybe some of us want to sleep in a windstorm on a high open bald in a blizzard.

So, the positive feedback loop might only be relevant to a narrow group of individuals.

Tipi,

Good to point out that going UL is not always about putting in more miles per day.

Perhaps it is simply better to say that going lighter gives you the OPTION of hiking more miles per day.

That said, having a light pack and putting in a leisurely day of few miles and just enjoying the scenery along the way is not a bad thing either.

Synergy of sorts, the lighter weight pack CAN give a number of other advantages discussed above.

HYOH.

Tony

"** More miles? This seems to be an UL mantra and part of the fast and light mindset. Seven mile days are perfectly acceptable. What's the rush?

** "Fewer days between resupplies" is to me the biggest drawback of a light kit. I just left a town and cars and folding money and traffic and roads to go into the woods so why the heck would I want to interrupt my trip with near constant resupplies? So, I carry more food weight and stay out longer w/o interruption.

** You say you have better site selection because you can do more miles to find a site but to me this means a UL kit dictates camp selection, a negatory in my opinion. Maybe some of us want to sleep in a windstorm on a high open bald in a blizzard.

So, the positive feedback loop might only be relevant to a narrow group of individuals."

Words of wisdom, Tipi. It's an approach to backpacking that is often overlooked on this site in the rush to rack up the miles. Personally, the goal of achieving a lighter base weight has always been so I could carry more food and stay out longer. Since I got down to ~11# base weight, I have been on a number of trips in the 9-11 day range with a total weight of ~22-25# total weight, food = 1#4oz/day. On none of those trips did I cover more than 85 miles. Could I have? You bet, but the whole point was to get back into some really remote country and just hang out, day hiking or sitting by a stream lost in the beauty of it all. Lots of ways to approach our shared passion, IMO.

"Words of wisdom, Tipi. It's an approach to backpacking that is often overlooked on this site in the rush to rack up the miles."

Don't forget than as we get older, we don't have to slow down if we don't want to.

"Don't forget than as we get older, we don't have to slow down if we don't want to."

Up to a point, which neither you nor I have reached yet, at least not so's it gets in the way of our respective styles. ;0) I was talking more about a conscious choice not to go for the big miles. My own preference, as stated above, is geared to a more leisurely approach that covers less miles but perhaps sees the territory I do cover in more detail. That said, I do maintain the ability to cover 18-20 mpd for a few days should the situation require it. I just don't find it very rewarding, but that is strictly personal and I'd be the first to admit there are trade offs involved.

"** More miles? This seems to be an UL mantra and part of the fast and light mindset. Seven mile days are perfectly acceptable. What's the rush?"

What am I supposed to do with the other 22 hours in the day???

"What am I supposed to do with the other 22 hours in the day???"

The question answers itself.

Well I think we can all agree that a lightweight pack allows for more choices and more opportunities to go exploring, fishing, reading, lounging around at camp and whatever. What you do with the extra time and energy is your choice.

I paint landscapes!

Rock ON, Dru! Wish I had the talent… :~)

"Rock ON, Dru! Wish I had the talent…"

+1

"Warmth" I put in because I always had a lot of difficulty sleeping warm. Now with the light pack that has suddenly changed. I suppose the main problem was exhaustion.

Btw I find myself walking slower; not faster. Also I'm not into training dogs.

ahhh.. Tipi's back to tell us how to hike 4 miles in the Smokies in the dead of winter by himself for a month at a time.. for those who don't know.. Tipi thinks that everyone lives in the same place and only hikes through 10' of snow in the winter.

if you have lighter gear you can have room and energy to carry more food and have less resupplys on a thru hike.. ie doing JMT with 3 stops instead of 5.

fewer days between but the same mileage. OR you could do the same amount of food and stay out longer. like easily doing the 100mi wilderness in 5 days versus carrying the "recommended" 10 days of food

7mi days lol.. like other said.. what would you do after 10am?

Tipi maybe you should wander back over to slowblaze where they enjoy being pack mules eh?

"Tipi maybe you should wander back over to slowblaze where they enjoy being pack mules eh?"

Maybe a little less mocking of a different way of being in the outback, and a little more live and let live? There is, or should be, room in this community for a diversity of opinions and approaches to backpacking.

you haven't read much of Tipi's trolls and disruptions of normal threads have you…

he has no interest in UL backpacking or any of it's ideas. hence his list of his objections in this thread and many others.

if it doesn't include an 80lb pack to go camping in the snow for a month he isn't interested.

Tipi posting on BPL is like a Kawasaki rider posting on a Harley site bitching about how V twin motors are crap and everyone should ride crotch rockets.

"you haven't read much of Tipi's trolls and disruptions of normal threads have you…"

Actually, I've read quite a few of his posts and, while most of them do not exactly ring my bell, I have found a few of his observations about the backpacking experience, as opposed to pure gear talk, to be worthy of consideration. Hell, in the context of this particular thread, as I posted previously, I agree with him about high mileage days not being the only goal of backpacking, UL or otherwise. Yeah, he can be disruptive at times, but he is far from alone in that regard. I definitely don't consider him to be a troll.

"he has no interest in UL backpacking or any of it's ideas. hence his list of his objections in this thread and many others."

True, perhaps, if the only goals of UL backpacking are a UL base weight and high mileage days, but when it comes to the esthetic/philosophical/spiritual/whatever part, I suspect he's out there for many of the same reasons as the rest of us.

Maybe another way to look at him is as a potential convert, a poor lost soul to be led from the path of darkness into Ultra Enlitenment. I'll make a confession here: I was once such a fallen angel, laboring beneath a 60-70+ pound load, but then Backpackinglight came into my life and I was saved. Surely, if a hopeless case like me can find salvation, there is hope for Tipi? Between you and me, I suspect there is a whole host of sinners like me who have come to the way, the truth, and the lite by the grace of Backpackinglight. Let us not give up so easily on Brother Tipi. ;0)

Edited for spelling

"** More miles? This seems to be an UL mantra and part of the fast and light mindset. Seven mile days are perfectly acceptable. What's the rush?"

sounds more like an accusation.

no one tells him that his way is wrong for the way he wants to backpack/camp. Yet has no problem accusing people that they are somehow wrong by doing what they want to do. He tells people that UL cannot be used to do what he does, except that no one is or wants to do what he does.

notice all of his arguments include sub freezing cold, snow, poor weather and many days with low miles.

If i want to do thru hike at 20mi/day it is because I want to and like it. I see a lot of things per day and can have time for other trips. If I want do do a 30mi day hike it is because I like the challenge and again get to see a lot of things. I prefer 3 season hiking with the longer trips in the warm summer.

UL pack doesn't *make* me go further or faster.. it allows me to do what I want.

"…laboring beneath a 60-70+ pound load, but then Backpackinglight came into my life and I was saved."

Halleluja and praise cuben fiber! BPL helped me tremendously to drop pack weight from 50+ to less than 20 (total).

"Halleluja and praise cuben fiber! BPL helped me tremendously to drop pack weight from 50+ to less than 20 (total)."

Amen, brother, amen. Praise The Lite.

This whole thread is drifting into theological territory, post by post. Check out Matthew 5:15, Luke 8:16, 11:33. Beware, Brother Tipi, your mortal soul is in danger.

"Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house."