Nov 6, 2013 at 7:35 am #1309530
I just got my first alcohol stove and I've read some of the really great articles here and on other sites on the various efficiencies and science behind the different fuel choices with pros and cons to each – but with a strong focus on the fuel that works best for the least volume.
I admit I'll take an efficiency hit in the interest of lowered toxicity. Methanol I think I'm ruling out just due to the hazardous nature of the product. I'd otherwise prefer something less sooty so it seems like given that Everclear is no longer available in NC that the overall best selection is the SLX denatured alcohol?
Is that a reasonable starting place and try to get Diesel/Everclear when I'm in SC at some point?Nov 6, 2013 at 7:45 am #2041751
Go the the store and get the product's name and UPC/SKU code, then google the MSDS (material safety data sheet) to see the alcohol mix. You're looking for the highest ethanol content possible, which right now with the ethanol-car-fuel stupidity going on, is around 50%.
None the less, if you are just a little careful when handling the stuff, and don't cook in enclosed places, it's not a big problem. IMHO.
(If, per chance you can hook up with the alcohol-burning dragster crowd you might be able to find some 95% ethanol.)Nov 6, 2013 at 7:46 am #2041752
Ike JutkowitzBPL Member
@ikeLocale: Central Michigan
I stock up on everclear when traveling to states that have it, but also use Klean Strip Green (available at Lowes) when needed. This is >90% ethanol and burns well with minimal odor and no residue.Nov 6, 2013 at 9:51 am #2041800
robert vBPL Member
@mtnbob123Locale: Upstate South Carolina
You just need to do a short road trip to Rock Hill SC and pick up some of the 95% ethanol(Everclear). We still have the good stuff down here!!Nov 6, 2013 at 9:56 am #2041801
You should ask your local ABC to make sure it's no longer available, since they may simply not be stocking it anymore. I've seen it recently appear in stores in my area, where they didn't previously have any.
If it's still on the list, and you ask them to get it, they will.Nov 6, 2013 at 10:12 am #2041805
My in-laws live off 521 in the Palmetto state – so I do visit Southern Spirits from time to time for not other reason than selection and price… but I appreciate confirmation that the good stuff is still for sale there!
That is the safest bet I think…
I also admit that I am basing my theory on the availability of 195 in NC based on news reports that the Mecklenburg ABC and NC ABC broadly had stopped carrying any versions due to the skewed sales around college campuses. I admit I haven't bought any since the 90s in law school … but do appreciate the potential multi purpose benefits (I normally carry a wee dram of scotch or bourbon – but can adjust to cut some ounces!)Nov 6, 2013 at 10:15 am #2041807
Javan – thanks for the heads up on NC ABC stores… If I recall they are regulated by the State but ultimately each county board is somewhat autonomous… i'd be happy if Mecklenburg would still source it as price aside it has to be the safest available fuel and it runs pretty cleanly as I understand it.Nov 6, 2013 at 10:23 am #2041811
Dustin ShortBPL Member
As per safety, you're exposed to more toxins breathing the diesel exhaust of a truck driving by than you will be on a hike in the woods burning a little methanol.
Sure it may not be the safest approach, but the amount of crap we're exposed to living in cities (or even relatively rural areas) from industry, day to day products, and exhaust fumes is staggering.
Getting into the woods is better than any juice detox you could do.
Worry less, hike more ;)Nov 6, 2013 at 11:40 am #2041842
Jeffrey ListBPL Member
@jlistLocale: Cape Cod
Get the 95% Everclear if you can, as it's multipurpose.
3. skin and gear cleaner (to make tape stick better)
4. comfort while awaiting rescue
I have to get mine out of state too, but it's worth it.Nov 6, 2013 at 1:17 pm #2041871
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Methanol: toxic to humans, including the vapour.
Ethanol: safe for humans up to a point: it's what's in alco beverages.
Propanol: the liquid is not toxic but the combustion by-products are.
The BIG problem in America is that there are no legal limits to what can be put in 'denatured' alcohol. Unbelievably toxic chemicals are routinely found in most versions. You might find a 'denatured ethanol' with 30% methanol, but that is mild compared to some products. It's a failure of government regulation which allows unscrupulous manufacturers to get away with 'murder'.
In many other countries around the world there are very tight health regulations concerning what can be in denatured or methylated alcohol, and these ARE enforced. To be sure, a nasty taste is added to deter drinking, but they recognise that some will still drink it so it has to still be 'safe'.
CheersNov 6, 2013 at 1:25 pm #2041873
James MarcoBPL Member
@jamesdmarcoLocale: Finger Lakes
Philip, Everclear(ethanol) is somewhat better as a fuel than HEET(methanol.) I think I remember around 12500BTU/lb and 9500 BTU/lb, respectivly. Don't forget the 5% water if you bother checking this. SLX is around 50/50 or about 11000BTU/lb.
Not a lot of heat, but close to what is in a canister + the can at around 13000- 13500 (if it has propane in it.)
But, with a very efficient stove, you get more "heating" of the water…less waste.
Generally, they come out pretty close to even in use.
Toppers tend to be a lot less efficient. External or remote stoves are far better.
SLX is far prefered. Some of the others have some strange stuff in them. Gasoline for starters. SLX is just industrial stuff. Nothing added, thest the blended ethanol/methanol and some byproducts from the production.
If you cannot get Everclear, SLX works in most stoves. Be aware that some stoves have trouble burning ethanol.Nov 6, 2013 at 1:35 pm #2041878
"Be aware that some stoves have trouble burning ethanol."
Can you name a couple commercially available stoves that don't handle ethanol well?
I'm curious what design characteristics make a difference.
(edit: Phillip, I see the Evernew Ti just specifies "denatured", so I think ethanol would be just fine.)Nov 6, 2013 at 1:44 pm #2041882
I have to agree that the worry about methanol is overblown a bit. A bit. Is it ideal? No. But marine stoves have been burning it for, what, a century? Yes, it is toxic, but burning it for a few days for 20 minutes a day is not going to kill you. The reference dose is something like 0.5mg/kg/day (that's a DAILY dose throughout an entire LIFETIME) and you are quite unlikely to absorb that much unless you ingest it. 10mL at once can cause blindness, 30mL can kill. So don't burn it in an enclosed space. Don't drink it. Or- my preferred method- be sure to drink some ethanol (methanol's antidote) while using it. :)
That said, why take chances? Like others I've sort of settled on Clean Strip Green, which is something like 95% ethanol with just a touch of methanol and other adulterants. Ethanol holds more BTUs than methanol. And is a HECK of a lot cheaper than Everclear (which I have also used in the past). It should be available in Lowes, Home Depot, and other such stores.
I still wouldn't think twice about using HEET as an emergency fuel if I needed to restock on the trail.Nov 6, 2013 at 3:23 pm #2041917
James MarcoBPL Member
@jamesdmarcoLocale: Finger Lakes
I don't know of any *commercial* stoves. But I know Hikin Jim had quite a problem getting ethanol to burn in a series of stoves he was working on a few years ago.
I believe he decided to go with slightly smaller jets.Nov 6, 2013 at 5:22 pm #2041968
Bad reasoning in my opinion because you haven't assessed the relative risk of methanol correctly. The very best all-around blend is the 50/50 mix found in SLX. Yellow bottle HEET (almost pure Methanol) works slightly better in extreme cold (iditarod racer's water heaters).Nov 6, 2013 at 6:17 pm #2041986
"Bad reasoning in my opinion because you haven't assessed the relative risk of methanol correctly. "
Please….enlighten us —
"The very best all-around blend is the 50/50 mix found in SLX."
Based on what criteria? Ethanol has a higher heat content, and is less toxic.
Please….enlighten us —Nov 6, 2013 at 9:08 pm #2042049
Jon FongBPL Member
@jonfongLocale: FLAT CAT GEAR
By safest alcohol for stove, I am assuming that you mean for handling and accidental contact with skin. My reason being that just burning any alcohol is not a great thing for you.
Now onto safest fuels.
1) Isopropyl alcohol – a number of us make rubbing alcohol stoves that burn clean (no soot)
2) Ethanol – 190 Everclear works fine, but I dilute it down ~10% to get a cleaner burn. Everclear 151 can work, but it is slow.
3) Ethanol – +90% hand cleaner. I find that it works pretty well but it depends on the type of stove that you are using. There are some other gelled alcohol fuels (fireplace and such) but they are not cheap.
JonNov 7, 2013 at 5:09 am #2042091
Well, the point that methanol lights easier in extreme cold probably IS true- it vaporizes at a lower temperature than does ethanol, and there is a lot of empirical experience on this forum to back that up. I know that some folks here like the S-L-X because the methanol component makes it easier to light in the cold, but the ethanol component holds more BTUs. (Though I have my doubts about the degree of benefit this mix allows.) And, as I've said, I agree that the methanol panic is a bit overblown.
That said, I'd probably just commit and use pure HEET, myself. But I'm rarely out in such severe cold, anyway.
And, on the other hand, I kind of agree with your point that boldly declaring a "very best all around blend" without explanation is useless, if not hubris.Nov 7, 2013 at 6:40 am #2042109
As a new user one of the puzzling components as Roger points out is the mystery involved in many of these blends… and a lot of discussions about the effectiveness and in some cases problems (some perhaps apocryphal) about different blends.
The Klean Strip Green seems like an appealing blend given the high ethanol content and relatively low percentage of "others" including methanol. However, I believe I read at least one report that was imputed to a known and reliable stove maker of Klean Strip green producing bubbling brown goop that clogged stove jets. Not really encouraging. Now that is one report – who knows if that was a bad batch – whatever.
The SLX is only three components – one of them methanol but still …
As many have noted – perhaps if you're cooking in an open area its all much ado about nothing – use the HEET or SLX or Green and stay upwind if possible. I suppose part of my concern is that I was going to use the stove on a maiden voyage next weekend with my sons boy scout troop on a backpacking trip that based on description of the trail will encourage packing light (not that I don't always have that in mind – but this is a 5 mile climb pretty much straight up to the campsite – certainly the most challenging terrain either of us have gone one). I'm not as concerned about the Scouts knocking it over – etc… during cooking time the adults are in a separate area and the boys are well policed in terms of rough behavior, plus this trip's description has scared off most of the younger scouts, my son excepted. I'd rather use the cleanest stuff even if outdoors – almost certainly overkill but i'll search out some Everclear just to be on the safe(r) side…Nov 7, 2013 at 7:54 am #2042139
Ok, I shouldn't assume much in a thread by a bunch of alky noobs. I've been alcohol-stoving for 6 years now and I've tried many different fuels. Ultimately I've settled on slx and I've burned many gallons of the stuff. I also use Yellow bottle HEET from time to time. In all my playing around with various burner types I've found slx to be the best performer – and experienced stovers will tell you the same.
High-proof ethanol has the highest BTU's but it doesn't burn as well as a methanol mix. Tell you what, go ask Tinny of Minibull designs what he uses.
And the dogfood water heaters carried by the racers uses HEET – methanol. Fact.
Methanol is toxic but you weren't planning on bathing with the stuff – right? The tiny amount you might absorb through the skin from stove handling is inconsequential. And you weren't planning on using your alchy stove in a closed up tent – right?Nov 7, 2013 at 8:00 am #2042141
Zorg – helpful comments and the answer is not planning on getting any of it on my hands or certainly very little (a drop or smear) – and nope don't cook in my tent (thankfully even in inclement weather our Troop carries several large cooking tarps).
wouldn't cook in my tent with an alcohol stove anyway – if it looked sketchy I'll take a gigapower with low CO2 emissions and still only cook in the vestibule with reasonable ventillation.
It sounds like of readily available stuff the SLX is a decent choice as is Everclear. I'll give both a try in my Evernew stove and report back!Nov 7, 2013 at 8:28 am #2042151
Slo HikerBPL Member
@slohikerLocale: NC Foothills
It's formulated to burn in ventless indoor alcohol fireplaces.
Using the coupon code FALL10 will get you 10% off thru 11/15/2013. I suspect it can be found in retail outlets that sell ventless burners.Nov 7, 2013 at 9:52 am #2042181
Larry De La BriandaisBPL Member
@hitechLocale: SF Bay Area
Methanol is just not as dangerous as seems to be implied on this forum. If you drink alcoholic beverages you consume methanol. Most people regularly consume up to 10 mg of methanol per day as part of their normal diet. The amount you are going to add to this by handling it or burning it is insignificant. When I mentioned the concern to a chemist friend of mine he laughed and commented as long as you don't drink it…
We regularly "ingest" many things that are "not good for us". It is all a matter of how much we consume and how bad it is. Your everyday lives cause you to "ingest" many more harmful things in much more dangerous amounts that using even pure methanol in an alcohol stove. Just don't drink it! ;)
One link to methanol safety:Nov 7, 2013 at 10:44 am #2042208
@ "Ok, I shouldn't assume much in a thread by a bunch of alky noobs."
:) Ah, hubris…
Philip, for what it's worth the back of the last S-L-X can that I bought says specifically that it can be used as fuel in (marine) alcohol stoves. I can't recall if Kleen Strip Green also purports to be a stove fuel. Ethanol does leave more residue than methanol- which essentially leaves none- but it's still pretty minimal. Of course, I don't use stoves with tiny burner holes, either.Nov 7, 2013 at 12:12 pm #2042244
Dale WambaughBPL Member
@dwambaughLocale: Pacific Northwest
I think the "green" versions of denatured alcohol are the safest and most practical form of alcohol stove fuel. Everclear would top my list, but it isn't available in all states and it is much more expensive.
The non-green denatured alcohols sold in the US have up to 45% methanol AND a witches brew of other "adulterants." Methanol is poisonous and I don't relish getting it on my skin or breathing the fumes, but not knowing the actual ingredients and their proportions are a broblem for me. Read the MSDS sheets on the stuff: you have no idea what is in the mix you have at any one time.
The track record for dealing with health issues with industrial chemicals isn't very good. We used benzene for solvent in the printing industry and I spent many hours in photographic darkrooms bathing in stuff like selenium toner. Other chemicals like carbon tetrachloride and PCB's were in common use until the health risks and environmental impacts were obvious. We used to handle mercury in science class, BPA is still in use, etc.
The thing to remember when you get in bed with the petrochemical industries is that their hearts are kept in the same freezer with the rest of the Wall Street players. IMHO, denatured alcohol is a dumping ground for leftover byproducts from refining.
The fact that denatured alcohol is labeled for use with marine stoves is meaningless to me. My personal judgement needs to be to be the first layer of defense when it comes to my health.
At least with the green types of denatured alcohol offered, the total proportion of adulterants is much smaller— more like 5% rather than 45%. I would think that a more consistent product would help with stove design and estimates for fuel use.
Isopropyl hasn't impressed me as being an alternative, but I would like to see the stoves that have been successful using it.
For those of you working on stoves that use isopropyl, purer forms (98.9%) are available through electronic supply houses. http://www.techspray.com/p-8-isopropyl-alcohol-ipa-998.aspx. It runs about $30 per gallon and shipping would be significant, so finding a local supplier would make it more practical. For comparison, 190 proof Everclear is $41 for a 1.75 liter bottle in my state.
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